analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

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Re: analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

Postby MrScotty » Mon May 21, 2018 11:12 am

Top ten lists can be found here on this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/p ... ge#9986318

Very interesting spread! The top ten saw your pretty predictable soup lists making appearances (Custodes bikers with a cheap guard screen and a vanguard of three assassins took the top place, Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar flyerspam took second) but we also had a nearly-pure CWE list at number four (one single Ynnari model making one of the detachments Ynnari), nearly pure Ultras at number five with Celestine in a -1CP detachment, pure Tau 7th (not that tau have a choice), pure Guard 8th, and pure Drukhari 9th. Also, there was an Ork list in one of the big "top tables" games, but they got smashed really hard in the last match by the eventual 1st place winner and got 11th place overall.

10 factions (plus 1 ynnari model and 1 saint celestine) made appearances in the top 10. My personal favorites are #10 (38 electropriests and 6 dragoons lets go boys!) and #8 (Steven someone stole your list) and #9 (Talos/Grotesque monster mash!)
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Re: analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

Postby Memento » Mon May 21, 2018 11:15 am

While I can appreciate that it took some effort to generate this, I'm not sure how much information can be gleaned from an event like the London Grand Tournament.

There are *so* many things being reported about how poorly the event was run that I don't think any sort of list analysis is meaningful. Aggravating factors from from overall event structure, to timing, to mission selection and shoddy terrain. Poor showing all around...
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Re: analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

Postby Draaen » Mon May 21, 2018 5:39 pm

The thing about the tournament conditions though is that everyone was affected by it. It's still a major tournament with high end players and barring the one or two guys who just got really lucky I'd still expect to see the best players at the top.

All those lists look really nasty to play against. The Admech list with almost 40 electro priests would be an interesting list to play against I think. The Guilliman/Celestine/razorback list is like a big middle finger to GWs attempt to limit soup and spam with the latest big FAQ.

It's nice to see Tau make a showing in the top 10. While I am surprised at some choices like no commanders I'm not surprised to see the static leaf blower gun line Tau make it high up. It is nice to see hammerhead s in the list I ran an ionhead and longstrike with an Ion cannon on Sunday and was pretty surprised to just how scary they can be. Longstrike shot once and then promptly became public enemy number 1. This list had like 55 fire warriors. That's a lot of potential shots if they triple fire and hit on 5's in over watch. It's a strong choice to pay the command point for the Sa'cea Marksman to unlock the Sa'cea stratagem though that just looks to me like I'd rather not have that in the game though.
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Re: analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

Postby Draaen » Thu May 24, 2018 3:24 pm

Apparently that Tau player got banned from the GT for cheating. Among other things he was playing the hammerheads as though they had for the greater good. That's an easy mistake to make as it is on the hammerhead datasheet but under the drone section. It would have made a big difference in game play since he was running T'au sept that gives 5+ in over watch. That's a lot of quality shots in over watch at 5+.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/ ... on-gt.html


Players Response

Apologies that this needed to be made public, but for the good of this new community we are trying to create, I think it is worth making this post.

So, let’s start with the event:

3 Games Friday, 4 games Saturday, 2.5 games Sunday. Yes I ended up playing pretty much all weekend. I didn’t have hardly any time to get any food or drink (que for the food was jokes, let alone the costs or the food itself).

After making it to the Invitational final, I was informed that is will be held on Saturday evening at 8pm, ok fine that will be a late one but acceptable. However, in the morning we can’t even get into the venue. This pushes back timings by about an hour and a half. Luckily I finished my previous game early, so when I went to play the invitational game I was told we would have about an hour and a half.

Onto the game itself. Now I had just played Geoff, it was a chilled out game and tight game. The invitational game felt a bit more tense and we were both tired and stressed. Both of us made mistakes which we each rectified between ourselves. However, as the game was streamed, there are the backseat generals who need to have their say. Lets look at the footage and answer the accusations.

1) I apparently knock my Hammerhead forwards slightly with my water cup. So, IF this was intentional (which it was not) what has this gained me? I have nothing INFRONT to overwatch? We learned that the Hammerhead can’t overwatch (more on that later) so what does this gain me? His shield captain flew to the left right next to the hammerhead, so what am I cheating here? It baffles me that this is a thing, models get knocked throughout the event but you gotta watch out for those water cups, they are dangerous!

2) Wound counter. I clearly pick up the dice of the wound counter (unintentional), and notice it missing later on. I assumed he had 3 wounds, but in fact it was 5. We resolve it and move on. But this is classed as cheating? I can see why people think that I have intentionally “attempted” to gain an advantage, so fair point. However, I had killed the captain 3 times previous and I assumed he had less wounds than he had. Mix this with 4 hours sleep and a tense game, I made a booboo. Did it effect the game? No because it was pointed out and I apologised and moved on.

3) “Lieng” to draw cards. Now Geoff forgot to draw cards in our previous game. I reminded him numerous times and when he forgot to discard I said its cool just do it. This is called a gentleman’s agreement. I may have forgotten to declare but the intention was there. I was *BAD WORD DELETED*. I could barely stand and yet this is cheating, really? How many times has a player forgotten to discard a card then ask if its ok to go back or said the intention was to obviously discard the card? It’s a gentleman’s agreement as I said. Geoff was kind enough to continue with this, as it really isn’t a big deal. Im allowed to discard and re-draw, ok it wasn’t exactly the right moment, but this doesn’t constitute cheating. I was tired, I forgot and I was stressed. I didn’t have any breakfast, so I made a blunder which had 0 impact on the game.

4) This one is actually weird. I pre-measured something, from my angle its in (I don’t lean in as I really am tired at this point), assume im in, he checks it, im out. Ok cool, no big deal. Move on. I think this happens in every game of 40k anyone has played?

5) The Hammerheads was on me. I played them wrong, which we went back and re-did. I had no idea they didn’t have FTGG, the drones do instead which wasn’t clear when we checked during the game. We both looked at the rule when it was brought up and didn’t notice. I was approached by almost every Tau player at the event and even they had no idea. Genuine mistake which we went back on.

6) Dice…now this one actually makes me laugh. The dice in question has a marble effect. I did not “Quickly” pick the dice up, it was there and Geoff stood staring at them, I went to pick it up whilst looking at him and said 2 hits. He then said no it’s a 3, I was a bit baffled as it was clear to me it was a 5 so showed him. The dice was white splatter on a red dice with white pips so I can see why Geoff may have assumed it was a 3. He says it wss definitely a 3 so I said ok and I re-rolled it. Literally no effect on the game. If I was trying to cheat, why on EARTH would I be trying to gain a marker token (my last marker token) to get a 2nd hit? You do realise the 2nd hit effects only seeker missiles, which I have none of? I have no idea why on earth I would need to gain such a useless advantage. Did that effect the game? Nope.

So that was me. Out of the entire footage, it has been picked apart minute by minute to see if I made any mistakes. This stinks of someone out there trying to find a way to smear me but ok. If someone were to do this to my opponent, I’d feel terrible for them. Geoff was a great guy and a pleasure to play against, even if it was a little salty the night before, I understand we were both tired and stressed. He attempted to re-roll using his relic twice, he messed up his re-draw of his cards, he tried using his custodies stratagem to draw a new card from a card he had drawn a turn previously, moved some models too far etc. but you know what? I know none of it was intentional because mistakes…happen. I would never call him up for it because we are all privy to it. We forget things, we mess things up. But none of it constitutes cheating. If there was any player that can safely say they have never done the above accidently then ill eat my hat. But because It is the top table, lots of people sat at home with 10 hours sleep and a full belly, they can spot all the “mistakes” and assume its cheating. Sad to see the event organisers point their pinky at me publicly without discussing it first. If anyone genuinely believes that I wanted to cheat my way to beating Geoff infront of hundreds and intentionaly steal the game then please have a good think about it. Why on earth would I try that when it’s recorded. Having been nailed to the cross before, I really don’t think I’d be clever to cheat on live TV. But hey, if it makes you sleep at night then fair enough. Wish the event would consider its own faults before throwing me under the car.

Now let's all review EVERY streamed game and ban others shall we ?

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Current Beta rules in effect
I'm happy to play lower points levels with people who are staring out or building up new forces
Fair warning my doofy daemons have 3rd party models, scratch builds, old warhammer models and I haven't moved all their bases over to the 40k ones yet! Happy to switch to either Tau or White Scars.
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Re: analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

Postby Kman2190 » Mon May 28, 2018 10:04 pm

Draaen wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 3:24 pm
Apparently that Tau player got banned from the GT for cheating. Among other things he was playing the hammerheads as though they had for the greater good. That's an easy mistake to make as it is on the hammerhead datasheet but under the drone section. It would have made a big difference in game play since he was running T'au sept that gives 5+ in over watch. That's a lot of quality shots in over watch at 5+.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/05/ ... on-gt.html




Players Response

Apologies that this needed to be made public, but for the good of this new community we are trying to create, I think it is worth making this post.

So, let’s start with the event:

3 Games Friday, 4 games Saturday, 2.5 games Sunday. Yes I ended up playing pretty much all weekend. I didn’t have hardly any time to get any food or drink (que for the food was jokes, let alone the costs or the food itself).

After making it to the Invitational final, I was informed that is will be held on Saturday evening at 8pm, ok fine that will be a late one but acceptable. However, in the morning we can’t even get into the venue. This pushes back timings by about an hour and a half. Luckily I finished my previous game early, so when I went to play the invitational game I was told we would have about an hour and a half.

Onto the game itself. Now I had just played Geoff, it was a chilled out game and tight game. The invitational game felt a bit more tense and we were both tired and stressed. Both of us made mistakes which we each rectified between ourselves. However, as the game was streamed, there are the backseat generals who need to have their say. Lets look at the footage and answer the accusations.

1) I apparently knock my Hammerhead forwards slightly with my water cup. So, IF this was intentional (which it was not) what has this gained me? I have nothing INFRONT to overwatch? We learned that the Hammerhead can’t overwatch (more on that later) so what does this gain me? His shield captain flew to the left right next to the hammerhead, so what am I cheating here? It baffles me that this is a thing, models get knocked throughout the event but you gotta watch out for those water cups, they are dangerous!

2) Wound counter. I clearly pick up the dice of the wound counter (unintentional), and notice it missing later on. I assumed he had 3 wounds, but in fact it was 5. We resolve it and move on. But this is classed as cheating? I can see why people think that I have intentionally “attempted” to gain an advantage, so fair point. However, I had killed the captain 3 times previous and I assumed he had less wounds than he had. Mix this with 4 hours sleep and a tense game, I made a booboo. Did it effect the game? No because it was pointed out and I apologised and moved on.

3) “Lieng” to draw cards. Now Geoff forgot to draw cards in our previous game. I reminded him numerous times and when he forgot to discard I said its cool just do it. This is called a gentleman’s agreement. I may have forgotten to declare but the intention was there. I was *BAD WORD DELETED*. I could barely stand and yet this is cheating, really? How many times has a player forgotten to discard a card then ask if its ok to go back or said the intention was to obviously discard the card? It’s a gentleman’s agreement as I said. Geoff was kind enough to continue with this, as it really isn’t a big deal. Im allowed to discard and re-draw, ok it wasn’t exactly the right moment, but this doesn’t constitute cheating. I was tired, I forgot and I was stressed. I didn’t have any breakfast, so I made a blunder which had 0 impact on the game.

4) This one is actually weird. I pre-measured something, from my angle its in (I don’t lean in as I really am tired at this point), assume im in, he checks it, im out. Ok cool, no big deal. Move on. I think this happens in every game of 40k anyone has played?

5) The Hammerheads was on me. I played them wrong, which we went back and re-did. I had no idea they didn’t have FTGG, the drones do instead which wasn’t clear when we checked during the game. We both looked at the rule when it was brought up and didn’t notice. I was approached by almost every Tau player at the event and even they had no idea. Genuine mistake which we went back on.

6) Dice…now this one actually makes me laugh. The dice in question has a marble effect. I did not “Quickly” pick the dice up, it was there and Geoff stood staring at them, I went to pick it up whilst looking at him and said 2 hits. He then said no it’s a 3, I was a bit baffled as it was clear to me it was a 5 so showed him. The dice was white splatter on a red dice with white pips so I can see why Geoff may have assumed it was a 3. He says it wss definitely a 3 so I said ok and I re-rolled it. Literally no effect on the game. If I was trying to cheat, why on EARTH would I be trying to gain a marker token (my last marker token) to get a 2nd hit? You do realise the 2nd hit effects only seeker missiles, which I have none of? I have no idea why on earth I would need to gain such a useless advantage. Did that effect the game? Nope.

So that was me. Out of the entire footage, it has been picked apart minute by minute to see if I made any mistakes. This stinks of someone out there trying to find a way to smear me but ok. If someone were to do this to my opponent, I’d feel terrible for them. Geoff was a great guy and a pleasure to play against, even if it was a little salty the night before, I understand we were both tired and stressed. He attempted to re-roll using his relic twice, he messed up his re-draw of his cards, he tried using his custodies stratagem to draw a new card from a card he had drawn a turn previously, moved some models too far etc. but you know what? I know none of it was intentional because mistakes…happen. I would never call him up for it because we are all privy to it. We forget things, we mess things up. But none of it constitutes cheating. If there was any player that can safely say they have never done the above accidently then ill eat my hat. But because It is the top table, lots of people sat at home with 10 hours sleep and a full belly, they can spot all the “mistakes” and assume its cheating. Sad to see the event organisers point their pinky at me publicly without discussing it first. If anyone genuinely believes that I wanted to cheat my way to beating Geoff infront of hundreds and intentionaly steal the game then please have a good think about it. Why on earth would I try that when it’s recorded. Having been nailed to the cross before, I really don’t think I’d be clever to cheat on live TV. But hey, if it makes you sleep at night then fair enough. Wish the event would consider its own faults before throwing me under the car.

Now let's all review EVERY streamed game and ban others shall we ?

I got word of this, the bad reviews of the tournament itself were coming out and this ban was released around the same time. It seems kind of a bit of a distraction, by throwing out this juicy story of a finalist cheating takes attention away from a poorly run event. I think both the player and organizers are far from perfect regarding their handling of this situation but given how bad things were organized, I lean towards giving Alex the benefit of the doubt of intentional cheating. I lament this, I take no pleasure of gawking over this but the community is on the cusp hitting a larger, mainstream audience and these incidents need to be handled better.
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Re: analysis of army lists for 40k London Grand Tournament

Postby Indy » Tue May 29, 2018 5:01 pm

S***y situation. First reading "how" he cheated was head-scratching, being like "wow...this is a pretty brazen dude..." ...but then again, serious money (like, enough to afford one ForgeWorld model) is on the line, right? Reading his commentary back (there's always two sides to the same story)...he has a case. Either he is one heck a brazen dude who has heck of a lawyer coming up with the perfect excuses for everything, or perhaps they really were human mistakes. Who knows.

It does seem kind of harsh to institute a ban THAT quickly after it happened without time to percolate on things. I did not watch the entire match start-to-finish, so others may weigh in one way or another. The parts I did see with the water glass seemed fairly innocuous: it seemed like he was trying to concentrate just kept putting the cup down rather than some strategic placing of it.

Like Kenji says, maybe it's a all a ruse to pull attention away from other things.
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