I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

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MrScotty
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby MrScotty » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:22 am

A concept list for "Mo' Dakka, Mo' Cp to keep things alive"

Battalion (Red Corsairs)

HQ: Daemon Prince with Wings+Sword (Warptime)
HQ: Sorceror, Mark of Tzeentch (Prescience, Weaver of Fates)

Troops: 5x CSM, Reaper Chaincannon (3x of these)

Battalion (Iron Warriors, Hellforged Warpack)

HQ: Master of Possession
HQ: Lord Discordant (Special Relic from Warpack, Baleflamer Warlord trait: depending on opponent, Daemonsmith, Bastion, not stoic advance because Daemonsmith is identical in shooting for your army and works in melee too)
HQ: Lord Discordant (1CP: Special Wl Trait from warpack)

Troops: 3x10 cultists with autoguns

Elites: 5x Terminators, Chainaxes and Combi-boltguns (using the Tsons terminators for this unit would be good)

Fast: Blood slaughterer of Khorne
Fast: Blood slaughterer of Khorne

Heavy: Venomcrawler
Heavy: Maulerfiend with Tendrils
Heavy: 3x Obliterators (These guys really would be best as Mark of Slaanesh, a double shoot stratagem that can be combined with a +1 wound stratagem on a turn where you rolled good for their guns would be just brutal, and it is totally free)

After buying your 1CP Hellforged pack and your 1CP extra warlord trait from it, you're left with a pool of 14 command points from this list, thanks to the 8CP Corsairs battalion.

Before your engines hit turn 2 you have the ability to put 60 autogun shots, 56 boltgun shots, and 48 reaper shots downfield to clear away cheapo chaff. The obliterators can deep strike, but you have another hilarious option thanks to their INFANTRY keyword: the Cannon Fodder stratagem, which you can use to make them untargetable. This can also be used any time during your opponent's shooting phase, including after they selected that unit of plasma hellblasters or whatever that wants to shoot the obliterators - force them to pump their shots into your super buffed up daemon engines instead.

The pimped out Disco Lord with the relic and trait is intended to provide a distraction carnifex from the real late game threat, which is your fastboi Disco Lord. Daemonsmith is a buff you can make work for you turn 1 by using it with the Obliterator combo (Veterans of the Long War+Endless Cacaphony+Rampant Technovirus while standing in Infernal Power...if you need to clear out a fuckton of primaris marines, that's the way to do it!)

You have a whole host of tools for keeping your important shit alive. Unholy Vigor allows a daemon engine to regenerate 4 wounds (3+1 for their regular regen) for 1cp, Dour Duty lets you strategically reduce the AP of your enemy's weapons by 1, and Iron Within gives you a 6++ fnp. Of course if you get Cursed Earth and Weaver of Fates as well.

The biggest struggle I see with this list is much like my Thousand Sons any army that likes psychic buffs REALLY wants first turn. If you get second turn, you've got a tactical conundrum that's going to depend heavily on the composition of the enemy army.

As an example, let's say we're up against this:
Basic Primaris List


Ultramarines Battalion
Captain in Phobos (Upgrade: Chapter Master, Adept of the Codex)
Librarian
Lieutenant
3x5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles
5x Hellblasters
3x Plasma Inceptors
3x Suppressors
3x Eliminators
3x Aggressors
Shoot when you die Banner Guy
Redemptor Dread with Dakka
Repulsor Executioner with big Lascannon
Repulsor with 4x Lascannon Build

And we're playing a modern mission so we know we most likely don't get first turn, the whole gunline is going to hit us basically. Marine armies nowadays pretty much deploy in a giant blob in the middle of the board, with the hellblasters, suppressors, and Repulsor Executioner toward the back and the Intercessors, Aggressors and Dreadnought toward the front.

My very first question looking at my opponent's board is: Can I find a feature somewhere on the table that can allow my Obliterators to be in range on my turn, but keep a unit of my cultists 31" away from Aggressors, Redemptor, and Intercessors?

My second question is: Can I hide my Sorceror and MoP from the Eliminators? Typically an infantry sized unit is easy to tuck between two windows in a ruin such that they're pretty much invisible.

and my third question is: Can I position my Maulerfiend in a way that he's threatening to catapult into the enemy lines using Warptime? I'd really like the Maulerfiend to be a clear, distinct threat, as opposed to the rest of the army being deployed in a bit of the blob.

With average rolls, accounting for RRs of 1 to wound and full RRs to hit, also assuming the Inceptors deep strike, our opponent can concentrate anti-tank fire and destroy 1 daemon engine reliably. He can also reliably use all his anti-infantry firepower to wipe out 2 of our CSM squads or all of our cultists (losing CSM is worse so we'll assume that). It doesn't make sense to declare everything in cover since he's got tons of AP on his anti-tank weapons, and we'll assume that we spent 3CP on Iron Within Iron Without and Cannon Fodder to keep him from targeting the obliterators.

On our turn, we want to advance the MoP up to create the scorched Earth and rerolls zone, and most of our shooting is going to be Obliterators, who can spend 3CP total (usually no need for +1 to wound vs marines) and make themselves seem like an unholy threat. Average rolls with double shooting lets them wipe 2 units of primaris stuff, probably Aggressors and Hellblasters. The Venomcrawler should be able to take out 2/3 suppressors easily with rr 1s to hit and wound.

The lascannon repulsor needed to be 24" away to use all its antitank weapons, so with Warptime we should be able to get 1 daemon engine to it. A blood slaughterer with Daemonforge up in the fight phase should do 12 damage with average rolls.

I'd expect to lose at least one more heavy unit next turn, and probably the Obliterators to massed anti-infantry fire, but our remaining melee units are ready to crash enemy lines turn 2 and we have enough cheap chaff remaining to hold the backline objectives.
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Eisenfresser
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Eisenfresser » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:14 am

Thanks for that tremendous write-up Scott.

That's a bunch more models than I've currently got :D

The Moar Dakka list I came up with is:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Renegades & Heretics) [20 PL, 8CP, 315pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot [8CP] +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ [6 PL, 50pts] +

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 25pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Renegade Commander [3 PL, 25pts]: Brutal Assault weapon, Laspistol

+ Troops [8 PL, 146pts] +

Renegade Cultists [3 PL, 56pts]
. Renegade Cultist Champion [5pts]: Autogun
. 8x Renegade Cultist w/ Autogun [40pts]
. Renegade Cultist w/ special weapon [11pts]: Flamer [6pts]

Renegade Militia Squad [3 PL, 46pts]
. Renegade Militia Champion [5pts]: Bolt pistol [1pts], Chainsword
. Renegade Militia w/ special weapon [7pts]: Grenade Launcher [3pts]
. Renegade Militia Weapon Team [10pts]: Heavy stubber [2pts], 2x Renegade Militia [8pts]
. 6x Renegade Militia with Autogun [24pts]

Renegade Mutant Rabble [2 PL, 44pts]
. Mutant Champion [8pts]: Laspistol, Power maul [4pts]
. 9x Mutant with Autopistol [36pts]

+ Fast Attack [6 PL, 119pts] +

Hellhounds [6 PL, 119pts]
. Hellhound [6 PL, 119pts]: Heavy flamer [14pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Track Guards [10pts], Turret-mounted Inferno Cannon [20pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [34 PL, 5CP, 555pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot [5CP] +

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ [9 PL, 148pts] +

Master of Possession [5 PL, 88pts]: Cursed Earth, Force stave [8pts], Infernal Power, No Chaos Mark

Warpsmith [4 PL, 60pts]: Bolt pistol, Flamer [6pts], Meltagun [14pts], No Chaos Mark, Power axe [5pts]

+ Troops [11 PL, 194pts] +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 42pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 8x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun [32pts]
. Chaos Cultist w/ special weapon [6pts]: Heavy stubber [2pts]
. Cultist Champion [4pts]: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion [22pts]: Chainsword, Combi-plasma [11pts]
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun [33pts]
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon [22pts]: Plasma gun [11pts]

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 75pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun [33pts]
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon [31pts]: Reaper chaincannon [20pts]

+ Elites [10 PL, 138pts] +

Chaos Terminators [10 PL, 138pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Chaos Terminator Champion [26pts]: Chainaxe [1pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
. Terminator [26pts]: Chainaxe [1pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
. Terminator [26pts]: Chainaxe [1pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
. Terminator [26pts]: Chainaxe [1pts], Combi-bolter [2pts]
. Terminator w/ Heavy Weapon [34pts]: Chainaxe [1pts], Reaper autocannon [10pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [4 PL, 75pts] +

Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 75pts]: Combi-bolter [2pts], Combi-bolter [2pts], Havoc launcher [6pts], No Chaos Mark

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [66 PL, , 1,112pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot [] +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Iron Warriors

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack [-1CP]

+ HQ [18 PL, 340pts] +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer [20pts], No Chaos Mark, Techno-venomous Mechatendrils
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer [20pts], Master of the Soulforges, No Chaos Mark, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Elites [4 PL, 60pts] +

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 60pts]
. Greater Possessed [4 PL, 60pts]: No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support [44 PL, 712pts] +

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 122pts]: Lasher tendrils [12pts], No Chaos Mark

Obliterators [18 PL, 285pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator [18 PL, 285pts]

Obliterators [12 PL, 190pts]: No Chaos Mark, 2x Obliterator [12 PL, 190pts]

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 115pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Total: [120 PL, 13CP, 1,982pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Which uses models I've got. The R&H can be swapped our for just about anything as I've got my entire guard army to pull from.
MrScotty wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:22 am
Fast: Blood slaughterer of Khorne
Fast: Blood slaughterer of Khorne
These guys look great!
I was already contemplating converting an Armiger for another Maulerfiend and I could easily play it as a Blood Slaughterer instead.

Thanks,
Game preferences:
+1 to going first roll if you finish deploying first
All terrain is "statuary"
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MrScotty
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby MrScotty » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:23 am

Mostly, the reason I went for the amazingly named BLOOD SLAUGHTERERS is that they are...a daemon engine, and they do a fast attack slot instead of doing a heavy support slot.

That was it. Honestly, Maulerfiends, Defilers, BLOOD SLAUGHTERERS RAAAAAAAARGH Lords Discordant and to some extent Venomcrawlers are all kind of sides of the same coin that do similar things with different extras stapled on for fun and profit.

Looking at this list, it feels like you've done a bit of a wild and wacky limbo dance just to get a hellhound in the list. You've already got a pair of Baleflamers in the list, that would seem to sort you pretty well for "mid strength low-AP autohitting weaponry". You could get 1 more command point than you currently have by ditching the commanders and the hellhound and running the whole kit and kaboodle as an IH brigade.

Also, I think I remember that the MoP's spells actually specify that they need <LEGION> Daemon units to work, so if he's in your separate AL detachment he won't be able to buff the lads, and I figure he wants to buff the lads. I know you weren't a fan of the way the Vindicator was working out for you, is there anything in its general price range you could proxy the blightcrawler conversion as that might do the role the Hellhound is currently filling?

A "hellforged Scorpius" is a kind of armored artillery piece thingy that shoots 6D3 S6 Ap-2 D2 shots 48" ignoring line of sight. it is 217 points, which means you'd have to drop the RnH commanders, the Hellhound and a few other pieces of extra equipment, but if you think about what the Hellhound is there to do in the list, the Scorpius would do the same thing while deleting a squad of primaris marines from the board each turn.

Also I think repair models are a bit silly most of the time, but they're extra special silly when you can spend 1CP to automatically regenerate 4 wounds on any of your vehicles.
Game Preferences:
A model may assault upper levels of terrain if they charge far enough to climb them
All current beta rules in effect unless opponent prefers otherwise
I love setting up custom, fluffy scenarios, PM me!
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Eisenfresser
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Eisenfresser » Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:11 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:23 am
Mostly, the reason I went for the amazingly named BLOOD SLAUGHTERERS is that they are...a daemon engine, and they do a fast attack slot instead of doing a heavy support slot.
Oh yeah, I'd noticed that. And it certainly makes it easier to field them in a Battalion without needing a separate Spearhead.
MrScotty wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:23 am
Looking at this list, it feels like you've done a bit of a wild and wacky limbo dance just to get a hellhound in the list. You've already got a pair of Baleflamers in the list, that would seem to sort you pretty well for "mid strength low-AP autohitting weaponry". You could get 1 more command point than you currently have by ditching the commanders and the hellhound and running the whole kit and kaboodle as an IH brigade.
Uh, yeah, I felt kinda burned on having enough dice last game.

Where're the Fast Attacks for a Brigade coming from?
MrScotty wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:23 am
Also I think repair models are a bit silly most of the time, but they're extra special silly when you can spend 1CP to automatically regenerate 4 wounds on any of your vehicles.
Are you including the 1 per turn included ability when you math to 4? And the way I see it is:
a) Saves me CP in a CP hungry list
b) I don't have other HQ models in the interim :D
Game preferences:
+1 to going first roll if you finish deploying first
All terrain is "statuary"
No First Blood - it's basically a bonus VP for going first
Current Beta rules

Army
4,500 points of Imperial Guard
2,800 of tanks alone