I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

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Eisenfresser
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I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Eisenfresser » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:24 pm

Having played a few games with my developing Chaos Warband what's clear is that I need more dakka. The Obliterators have been amazing. And so I"m gonna build the two I got from Spencer for a total of 5 in two squads.

But I'm also thinking that a Havoc squat would've been super useful in these battles. Kitted with either Reaper Chaincannons or Lascannons - depending on the match up. With them in the Alpha Legion detachment and in cover they'll be -1 to hit and 2+ save routinely.

Are there other good options in the Codex for the same sort of role?

I also realize that Veterans of the Long War would be excellent to use on any of these units.
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Darth Hoodie » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:58 pm

I have been having a lot of fun with running a 10 man terminator bomb with combi plasmas/ chain axes alongside a sorcerer for presiance and delightful agonies. Mark all those suckaz up with Slanesh and your opponent is in for a world of hurt. Hello, 20 overcharged plasma shots that cant get hot and have +1 to wound. 40 damage anyone? Endless cacophony those boys and you have 40 overcharged plasma shots 80 Damage anyone? You can do something similar with plasma chosen in a drop pod as well.

With VOTLW and Endless Cacophony in rapid-fire range, you do a LUDACRIOUS amount of damage and with Delightful Agonies suddenly they have a 5+++ FNP to shrug off the inevitable counter fire they take. But then again you don't like bodies and that's more or less what I have been building my lists around.

As for the Obliterators I have not used them YET but a lot of people use them in a similar manner that I run my Terminators. If I were you I would source another one as to get the best economy from your stratagem support IIRC they can be taken in max squad sizes of 3 and anything less than 3 of them its a bit of a waste to spend VOTLW and Endless Cacaphony on them. (They are relatively affordable on eBay, in sets of 2 from Shadowspear. I'd be willing to order one and split the price with ya, I only have 2 and could use a third.)

I know you are going for a dark mech themed Warband. What's your take on Dreads? Hellforged Contemptor Dreads are FANTASTIC options with BS2+ a 5++ Invul saves and AWESOME weapon options for a manageable point investment. You could also look into Chaos Knight Helverins not sure on points cost but from back in the early 2019 meta loyalist Helverins were HELLACIOUS super fast and super shooty.

As for Havocs, I would personally avoid them. In the current meta, they are a TON of points for 1 wound models even with T5 and the survivability buffs from cover and Alpha Legion. All it takes is a single unit of intercessors to look your way in tactical doctrine to wipe them out. The ONLY way to try and get their points back is to button them up in a rhino until they hop out and whomp something in shooting with stratagem and psychic support.

Use your dirty bag of tricks. If going the demon engine route you're going to want a disco lord, master of possession and greater possessed for buffs.

Dark Apostles are also handy as well as the classic sorcerors.
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby MrScotty » Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:55 am

I set my chaos list up with four elements to it: Distractions/Designated Die-ers, shooty midrange objective holders, heavy melee hitters, and cheap mobile objective grabbers. I don't tend to bring longrange static artillery elements, because it just really isn't the core focus of the list so I don't have the screens to protect them from being tied up.

Turn 1, I aim to lose my Helldrake and my Tzaangors after causing some havoc with them. Tzaangors are a completely melee-based unit, and my codex has a relic that allows me to basically "Da Jump" one unit up the board if I need to so I take a single big block of 30 of them and if I see an opponent has a list that really doesn't want 30 angry harvey birdmans 9" away from it turn 1, I jump them up, otherwise they just advance up the board in a big wave and try to take objectives. The goal is to present a problem that must be solved with anti-infantry guns or melee or else you're getting charged turn 2. Then the Heldrake, which is the most durable unit in my army for the points, does what it do and tries to charge some tank that can't fight back. If your opponent has a big threatening looking model in their deployment zone turn 1, they will try to shoot it down.

That frees up the rest of my list to operate like it would want to. Usually, that is a couple of rhinos full of rubric marines walking or advancing out turn 1 onto objectives, a defiler sneaking up to the point where I figure Warptime could get it into combat next turn, and a daemon prince doing the same thing under the guise of buffing the tzaangors. Usually I throw defensive buffs on the defiler just to dissuade people from shooting it instead of the drake.

Then turn 2, I aim to lose the prince and the Defiler after they've charged in and done some damage. If I have a setup with rubrics and Sorcerors on objectives, rhinos still alive and I'm going into turn 3, I'm feeling good.

That's quite a bit different from the "assault wave" style lists that throw everything into aggression with very little left in the backfield to clean up objectives - think Mark's White Scars list where basically everything is assault marines and bikes with only 3 squads of intercessors camping in the background. My Rubrics and Scarabs are expensive, and I need them to be pulling their weight with firepower, so I need empty rhinos to be running around pulling backfield duty so they can be up and participating. I dont' put enough into the assault elements to really aim to cripple an opponent's list, just enough to pay for themselves and take things out that threaten to be able to dislodge my 1+ armor save rubrics.
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby spruter » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:27 am

I had a thought about our game last time and I feel like you would’ve benefitted from a sorcerer with prescience. Even with my ability to completely turn off psykers, I can only do so within 24” so I wouldn’t have been able to reach you within the first or maybe even the second turn as you could simply move the sorcerer during the movement phase and continue buffing.
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby MrScotty » Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am

Prescience is...alright. It's honestly one of my lower priorities.

Reason being, usually my shooting focused unit ends up being a daemon engine, and daemon engines have access to the 1CP stratagem Daemonforge, full rerolls to hit and to wound in a phase. Which is...pretty much an always-used strat for me (I have a dual-las defiler I use it on). Prescience buffs shooting by 17% normally, but it only buffs rerollable shooting by 11%. I guess that does presuppose that you've got Weaver of Fates and Warptime competing for casting space though, but I do think Weaver is in the CSM codex as a Tzeentch-only spell? Maybe it's not, IDK, I just know it's on the Change discipline in Thousand Sons.

My findings have been that an alive daemon engine is more effective than an extra killy one.

I can see prescience being good for BS3+ vehicles though. Jumping up from a 3+ reroll 1s to a 2+ reroll 1s is a big deal.

IMO, if you want to increase the survivability of your daemon engines and increase the gunsiness of your list, I would add Red Corsairs min CSM squads with Sorcerors/DPs as the HQs.

Psychic Powers can be cast regardless of subfaction, RC battalions grant 8CP instead of 5, and if you're running your engines as Iron Warriors you have a whole host of stratagems that you can use to protect your engines.
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A model may assault upper levels of terrain if they charge far enough to climb them
All current beta rules in effect unless opponent prefers otherwise
I love setting up custom, fluffy scenarios, PM me!
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby spruter » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:15 am

MrScotty wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am
Prescience is...alright. It's honestly one of my lower priorities.
I meant specifically for him as he had a leman russ hitting on 4s.
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby MrScotty » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:21 am

spruter wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:15 am
MrScotty wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:56 am
Prescience is...alright. It's honestly one of my lower priorities.
I meant specifically for him as he had a leman russ hitting on 4s.
Definitely can't cast prescience on a non-CSM model. So, wouldn't work on a lemon rousse.
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All current beta rules in effect unless opponent prefers otherwise
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Eisenfresser » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:01 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. First thought on them.

The terminator plasma gun bomb seems like a decent middle road option in some ways, but doesn't address what I've had problems with so far:
Not enough shots for hordes
Not hard hitting enough to be great at AT (it's obviously okay at AT). And it's only good with buffs otherwise it's awful risky.
Plasma is good at killing the same things that my murder bots are good at killing.
And the range limitation is not great for what my army looks like right now - being able to hit some stuff at long range seems like what I need and the plasma is best at 12"

That being said, I do plan to get terminators at some point. I'm trying to prioritize what to get next.

The dreadnought idea is also appealing of course, particularly for my list. Where are the Contemptor rules?

For fluffy reasons I'm disinclined towards any Marks of Chaos as they do not fit either Mechanicum or Alpha Legion.

I don't see that Alpha Legion marines are that vulnerable. Intercessors take 8 shots to kill one. And they should staying outside of Rapid Fire range.
Game preferences:
+1 to going first roll if you finish deploying first
All terrain is "statuary"
No First Blood - it's basically a bonus VP for going first
Current Beta rules

Army
4,500 points of Imperial Guard
2,800 of tanks alone
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Darth Hoodie » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:07 pm

Eisenfresser wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:01 pm
Thanks for the suggestions. First thought on them.

The terminator plasma gun bomb seems like a decent middle road option in some ways, but doesn't address what I've had problems with so far:
Not enough shots for hordes
Not hard hitting enough to be great at AT (it's obviously okay at AT). And it's only good with buffs otherwise it's awful risky.
Plasma is good at killing the same things that my murder bots are good at killing.
And the range limitation is not great for what my army looks like right now - being able to hit some stuff at long range seems like what I need and the plasma is best at 12"

That being said, I do plan to get terminators at some point. I'm trying to prioritize what to get next.

The dreadnought idea is also appealing of course, particularly for my list. Where are the Contemptor rules?

For fluffy reasons I'm disinclined towards any Marks of Chaos as they do not fit either Mechanicum or Alpha Legion.

I don't see that Alpha Legion marines are that vulnerable. Intercessors take 8 shots to kill one. And they should staying outside of Rapid Fire range.
The rules for Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnoughts are in the Chaos FW Book.
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Re: I'm Gonna Need More Guns - After a few battles with Chaos

Postby Fishwater » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:30 pm

Contemptors are neat with Butchers or C-Beams for ITC kills but definitely play better as DG or Purge. Though, it is one of those units I have found you take a few or none and that leaning into the unit works best.
MrScotty's comment on alive daemon engines being better is spot-on. Loading up on some and having a MoP around improving their invul is pretty neat!
MoP+Iron Warriors+Daemon Engines (including a disco lord maybe)=Dope.