Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

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Anacrucis
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Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby Anacrucis » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:14 pm

Ok so for example, sorcerers. They are in the MSons codex. They are in the Index. As I see it, Codex: CSM is not relevant to the discussion anymore.

So C:TS has very limited options for wargear for sorcerers. I:FoC has very broad wargear options.

So all the Index options are still available. If I want to take a sorcerer with, say, force axe and I dunno, combi bolter or something, I still can.

So force axe is (believe it or not) not in Thousand Sons Codex.

If I understand the decision tree correctly, then, I use the Sorcerer stats and points from the codex, the weapon stat lines from the index, and the weapon points costs from the CSM (?) section of chapter approved (if different from index)?

Based on the rationale that MSons still have the Heretic Astartes keyword, and are explicitly treated as a sub-faction of CSM in the still-active source that is the index, even if they are technically their own faction now for codex purposes.

I keep track of all this in a spreadsheet I use for a template for army building so I only need to figure this stuff out once, so I want to make sure I have it right! The worst error is the one that is repeated through automation...
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Re: Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby MrScotty » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:51 pm

I would say that is the correct interpretation, given that at the time of Chapter Approved, Thousand Sons were still "a subfaction of csm" as you say. So you would get the Force Axe points change to 10pts and the Force Sword change to 8pts (unless that weapon is in codex Tsons).

Also, according to GW's "Maybe model, maybe rules?" policy, our Exalted Sorcerors and Aspiring Sorcerors get Plasma Pistols (yay) but our rubrics don't get to take soulreaper cannons unless there's 10 in the unit (boo) unless you take them in the Elite slot by using the Rubric entry in the CSM codex and replacing the [Legion] keyword with Thousand Sons (???) because rubrics are in the Thousand Sons unit list in the index (????????????????) but then they lose plasma pistols (??????????????????????????????) but maybe still get them because they have plasma pistols in the codex (????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)

Thinking about the implications of publishing multiple different datasheets for units of the same name in different up-to-date codexes is what causes what happens when Aspiring Sorcerors roll perils.
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Re: Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby Memento » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:10 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:51 pm
I would say that is the correct interpretation, given that at the time of Chapter Approved, Thousand Sons were still "a subfaction of csm" as you say. So you would get the Force Axe points change to 10pts and the Force Sword change to 8pts (unless that weapon is in codex Tsons).

Also, according to GW's "Maybe model, maybe rules?" policy, our Exalted Sorcerors and Aspiring Sorcerors get Plasma Pistols (yay) but our rubrics don't get to take soulreaper cannons unless there's 10 in the unit (boo) unless you take them in the Elite slot by using the Rubric entry in the CSM codex and replacing the [Legion] keyword with Thousand Sons (???) because rubrics are in the Thousand Sons unit list in the index (????????????????) but then they lose plasma pistols (??????????????????????????????) but maybe still get them because they have plasma pistols in the codex (????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)

Thinking about the implications of publishing multiple different datasheets for units of the same name in different up-to-date codexes is what causes what happens when Aspiring Sorcerors roll perils.
The difference, I think is that Codex Heretic Astartes unit entries cannot benefit from <Legion> Thousand Sons (as specifically stated in the Codex). Ergo, if you were to take Elite slot Rubrics from the Heretic Astartes they could not be <Thousand Sons> and would break your Detachment for the purposes of Legion Cookies, Relics, etc...
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Re: Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby Anacrucis » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:22 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:51 pm
I would say that is the correct interpretation, given that at the time of Chapter Approved, Thousand Sons were still "a subfaction of csm" as you say. So you would get the Force Axe points change to 10pts and the Force Sword change to 8pts (unless that weapon is in codex Tsons).

Also, according to GW's "Maybe model, maybe rules?" policy, our Exalted Sorcerors and Aspiring Sorcerors get Plasma Pistols (yay) but our rubrics don't get to take soulreaper cannons unless there's 10 in the unit (boo) unless you take them in the Elite slot by using the Rubric entry in the CSM codex and replacing the [Legion] keyword with Thousand Sons (???) because rubrics are in the Thousand Sons unit list in the index (????????????????) but then they lose plasma pistols (??????????????????????????????) but maybe still get them because they have plasma pistols in the codex (????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????)

Thinking about the implications of publishing multiple different datasheets for units of the same name in different up-to-date codexes is what causes what happens when Aspiring Sorcerors roll perils.
To me this one is a little less convoluted. The MSons could never take the elite-slot rubrics under their Index armylist, IIRC they only had access to their own troop-slot version, which is superseded by their new codex.
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Re: Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby Anacrucis » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:38 pm

Ok so how about “Daemon Prince” and “Daemon Prince of Tzeentch” - are these two different datasheets or does the latter (which I believe has some pretty significant differences) supersede the former? And if it does, can it still take a Warp Bolter per Index: Chaos? (Obvs if we treat them as different then the new one does NOT get the warp bolter)
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Re: Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby MrScotty » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:02 pm

I was just looking at this one. I believe they are in fact two distinct and still legal units. You can still field either the Daemon prince from the index or the DPTz from the codex, but they don't overlap.

The loss of a warp Bolter is honestly nothing compared to the 4++ and extra spell. DPTz is amazing.
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Anacrucis
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Re: Revisiting that what-book-do-I-use flowchart

Postby Anacrucis » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:21 am

MrScotty wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:02 pm
I was just looking at this one. I believe they are in fact two distinct and still legal units. You can still field either the Daemon prince from the index or the DPTz from the codex, but they don't overlap.

The loss of a warp Bolter is honestly nothing compared to the 4++ and extra spell. DPTz is amazing.
Yeah I have no doubts about how I would run him if I had my druthers (which I do! Yay codex!) but I want my spreadsheet list of options to be complete and accurate.