Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

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Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Draaen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:22 pm

The early warning override states "If an enemy unit is set up within 12" of a model equipped with an early warning override as the result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle (i.e. teleporting to the battlefield), th emodel may immediately shoot at that unit as if it were your shooting phase".

So if I have a model equipped with the early warning override and move really close to my opponents transport and his dudes get out within 12" do I get to shoot? The FAQ says that things like Da Jump which had models on the table trigger early warning override. To me it seems weird that disembarking would trigger it. My sensors could tell you were about to open a door and get out? Seems cheesy on the face of it to me.

The argument for it is that the transport deployment is an ability. Technically the models aren't on the table while in the transport. So they are not on the table technically and a transport has the ability to set up the unit within 3" of itself. The dudes use that ability to be set up within 12" of my model and I get to shoot them? I'm not sure the value even with that favorable interpretation but it could be a decent counter play against transports.

I was wondering what you guys thought of this. Can I shoot at people disembarking with an early warning override? Is it a bit rules lawyery?
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Memento » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:28 pm

I would say you wouldn't get the benefit if units were disembarking from a Transport that started the game on the table.

But units coming out of a Drop Pod (or similar)? Totally fair game!
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Anacrucis » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm

Memento wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:28 pm
I would say you wouldn't get the benefit if units were disembarking from a Transport that started the game on the table.

But units coming out of a Drop Pod (or similar)? Totally fair game!
I don’t have rules references handy, but I would say the early warning would let you fire at the drop pod, not at the guys coming out of it. The intent is clearly that this is for use against deep strike and similar.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Memento » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:04 pm

Anacrucis wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm
Memento wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:28 pm
I would say you wouldn't get the benefit if units were disembarking from a Transport that started the game on the table.

But units coming out of a Drop Pod (or similar)? Totally fair game!
I don’t have rules references handy, but I would say the early warning would let you fire at the drop pod, not at the guys coming out of it. The intent is clearly that this is for use against deep strike and similar.
It's a bit convoluted. Early Warning Override allows a unit to target units set up as a result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle. Units units embarked upon a Drop Pod may arrive mid-battle as a result of the Drop Pod Assault ability. Ergo, fair game.

As to clear intent, you could also argue that this is the intent of EWO. In 7th Edition, EWO granted the Interceptor special rule, which allowed units to target anything coming out of a Drop Pod. One might make the argument that this is the 8th Edition successor to that.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Draaen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:32 pm

Memento wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:04 pm
Anacrucis wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:57 pm
Memento wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:28 pm
I would say you wouldn't get the benefit if units were disembarking from a Transport that started the game on the table.

But units coming out of a Drop Pod (or similar)? Totally fair game!
I don’t have rules references handy, but I would say the early warning would let you fire at the drop pod, not at the guys coming out of it. The intent is clearly that this is for use against deep strike and similar.
It's a bit convoluted. Early Warning Override allows a unit to target units set up as a result of an ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle. Units units embarked upon a Drop Pod may arrive mid-battle as a result of the Drop Pod Assault ability. Ergo, fair game.

As to clear intent, you could also argue that this is the intent of EWO. In 7th Edition, EWO granted the Interceptor special rule, which allowed units to target anything coming out of a Drop Pod. One might make the argument that this is the 8th Edition successor to that.
The FAQ is partly what muddies the waters to me

Q: Can models with an early warning override Support System
use it to shoot at units that use psychic powers such as Gate of
Infinity or Da Jump to set up within 12"?
A: Yes

So a unit that was on the table has an ability used on it and it gets set up within 12" of an early warning override and the shots get off. So the has to be in reserves doesn't seem to apply. It does state psychic powers like Da Jump so does that apply to getting out of a drop pod? If it works against a drop pod why not other vehicles?

The intent of the rule to me would be models deploying out of reserve which would include the drop pod it's unit but not people disembarking from vehicles... but I could see it being fluffy and working against people deployed from a flyer. Doesn't the valkyrie have a similar deep strike mechanic? It seems if you ignored intent and looked straight at the rules it would work in all those situations. It's almost like they didn't want to put all the scenarios and complicate the rule so it was made more general and would proc on any of those scenarios plus some.

The huge difference between what the apparent intent is and what I think is the strictly rules wise approach is just so different. If I were playing against someone and they said oh yeah I can do this when you disembark I would ask him to back it up. It would seem a rose tinted glasses interpretation done by a Tau player. Being able to shoot at disembarking units would change the early warning override to something that affects how my opponents deepstrieks to something I can actively attempt to get to proc by moving close to tanks and then blowing it up to force a disembarkation to get a bonus shooting round vs the embarked unit. Multiple bonus rounds if the transport has a couple units or a few characters in it.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Memento » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:38 pm

I guess the main difference for me is that Embark/Disembark are universal rules that apply to all transports that start the game on the table (which exempts them from the "ability that allows them to arrive mid-battle" clause). Whereas Drop Pods and such have a modified rule that specifically allows units to arrive mid-battle.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby The cosmic serpent » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:06 pm

I'm also not sure aside from pods and flyers when this type of interaction would take place? In most cases your opponent is starting more than 15" away from your forces so if they disembark they wouldn't be in range until after they move which arriving during the game doesn't allow?

I would also say just from that rules interaction alone makes the case that disembark !=/= arriving mid game as you can move normally after disembarking. I think stretching EWO to work after a unit disembarks is going to lose you friends/opponents.

GoI specifies that the unit is set up in deep strike and can immediately arrive. Deep strike is what allows EWO to kick off on GoI units.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Anacrucis » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:32 pm

I would agree that as a fundamental game mechanic, disembarking is not an “ability”. Which is partially why I thought drop pods would be a no go too but I don’t have rules handy and Anthony raises a good point.

To me “ability” refers to text in a specific section of the datasheet either of the unit in question (e.g. teleporting terminators) or the unit deploying it (e.g. valkyries dropping troops). This is muddied somewhat by the faq ruling on psyker powers but I would still say that something as core to the 6 page batttle primer as disembark is not applicable.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Draaen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:35 pm

Part of the reason i thought it may work was that transports say you remove the unit from the battlefield. So setting up after that they would technically be getting set up mid battle via the transport ability. However a closer reading it says the unit is in the transport but just can't be affected by anything which is different from not existing as I had initially thought. So a unit that starts in the tank is counted as physically there and when they get out the set up is more of a move so the early warning override wouldn't proc.

Reading the drop pod rule it says it comes down and then after it lands people immediately disembark

The way I think it would work now

1 - Drop pod falls to the ground with unit inside within 12" of early warning override. Both the unit and drop pod are on the table and immediate effects take place.
Immediate Effects - Player whose turn it is decides order.
Unit disembarkation
Early warning override on the drop pod arriving midgame
Early warning override on the unit inside arriving midgame
3 - Controlling player says shoot the unit which is not target able as it is within the drop pod and the shots are wasted
4 - Controlling player says shoot the drop pod which the Tau do
5 - Controlling player disembarks unit from the drop pod. Early warning override is not procced as the unit disembarking was in the the drop pod at step 1 so this is like any old transport disembarkation.

I seem to remember the player whose turn it is would determine the order which is what I wen off so it would never be favorable to Tau. Unless I am getting creamed and my opponent takes pity on me and deploys first lol.
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Re: Early Warning Override and Disembarking Units

Postby Draaen » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:42 pm

The cosmic serpent wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:06 pm
I'm also not sure aside from pods and flyers when this type of interaction would take place? In most cases your opponent is starting more than 15" away from your forces so if they disembark they wouldn't be in range until after they move which arriving during the game doesn't allow?

I would also say just from that rules interaction alone makes the case that disembark !=/= arriving mid game as you can move normally after disembarking. I think stretching EWO to work after a unit disembarks is going to lose you friends/opponents.

GoI specifies that the unit is set up in deep strike and can immediately arrive. Deep strike is what allows EWO to kick off on GoI units.
Yeah it came up on another Tau forum where people were like clearly this works on disembarking since they are set up within 3" of the tank and midgame. It struck me as not correct but I wasn't sure why besides my gut saying this seems lame.

As for uses without the disembarking It's more area denial to keep people further away but I'm not sure it would be worth the cost TBH.

If it counted disembarking I would take a commander with 3 cyclic ion blaster (18 shots at S7 AP-1 or S8 AP-1 D3 dmg) and some cold star commanders and drop them close by a transport ideally with a couple characters in there and blast the snot out of whatever is in there. Not much would be able to live through that inferno. Since characters are individual units it would proc the early warning override too meaning my commander could shoot multiple times. Big risk as the models would be out there but big reward too.
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