Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

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The Last Acton Hero
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Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby The Last Acton Hero » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:21 pm

Is there anything stopping me from using an Auxiliary Support Detachment to take a Master of Ordnance, making him my warlord (grand stratagist) and giving him the aquila?
Edit: I know a 180 min guard battalion is probably the better choice, but that's 5 drops and ~32 models I don't want to paint.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby PlaguemasterFlex » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:30 pm

No there is nothing stopping you, this is legal. It works really well for tyranids/gsc.

That being said the FAQ should be out sometime this month and is rumored to be killing soupy cp regen. So we will see how that goes, but for now this works fine.

You could also just do a patrol with a company commander and 10 guardsmen.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby MrScotty » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:18 pm

The Last Acton Hero wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:21 pm
Is there anything stopping me from using an Auxiliary Support Detachment to take a Master of Ordnance, making him my warlord (grand stratagist) and giving him the aquila?
Edit: I know a 180 min guard battalion is probably the better choice, but that's 5 drops and ~32 models I don't want to paint.
While you can, Marines can get that warlird trait through captain smashy, who comes stapled to his handy dandy scout battalion - if you're going the "I want more CPs" gamey competitive route it's probably better to staple on the double smashcap+triple scoots battalion. Not least because you probably already have those models. For the Moo to make himself worth it, you have to have your opponent cast 6 Stratagems (since the aux costs you 1cp)

Jump pack thunder hammer guys you just say "these guys are blood anhels" to are more fun than stapled on guard anyway.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby AngelusSperi » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:11 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:18 pm
The Last Acton Hero wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:21 pm
Is there anything stopping me from using an Auxiliary Support Detachment to take a Master of Ordnance, making him my warlord (grand stratagist) and giving him the aquila?
Edit: I know a 180 min guard battalion is probably the better choice, but that's 5 drops and ~32 models I don't want to paint.
While you can, Marines can get that warlird trait through captain smashy, who comes stapled to his handy dandy scout battalion - if you're going the "I want more CPs" gamey competitive route it's probably better to staple on the double smashcap+triple scoots battalion. Not least because you probably already have those models. For the Moo to make himself worth it, you have to have your opponent cast 6 Stratagems (since the aux costs you 1cp)

Jump pack thunder hammer guys you just say "these guys are blood anhels" to are more fun than stapled on guard anyway.
Actually the only marine CP regen trait is Ultras. BA have a 5+ regen relic, though smash captain tends to rely on the no over watch relic jump pack a bit.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby Draaen » Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:58 pm

Is there a rule that prohibits you from getting multiple tries to get a command point back? Like if I had two relics or a relic/warlord trait that lets me get a command point back on a 5+ whenever I spend a CP? I kind of wondered why I never seem to see that in competitive lists. You see a mix of when you spend command points or an opponent but never two items for the same source. Or is it that GW has just been good at limiting the bonuses so that they can't stack and no explicit rule is required?
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby MrScotty » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:51 pm

Draaen wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:58 pm
Is there a rule that prohibits you from getting multiple tries to get a command point back? Like if I had two relics or a relic/warlord trait that lets me get a command point back on a 5+ whenever I spend a CP? I kind of wondered why I never seem to see that in competitive lists. You see a mix of when you spend command points or an opponent but never two items for the same source. Or is it that GW has just been good at limiting the bonuses so that they can't stack and no explicit rule is required?
They do stack and they definitely are a strong thing - the way it's worded you can legitimately get more than one cp back off an expenditure. Cpt smash is incredibly spendy - capable of one rounding a knight on average if he can spend like 10cp doing it. The standard competitive framework for the imperium currently is guard battalion + double 5+ trait and relic and then double smashcap with the BA relic.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby PlaguemasterFlex » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:43 pm

Draaen wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:58 pm
Is there a rule that prohibits you from getting multiple tries to get a command point back? Like if I had two relics or a relic/warlord trait that lets me get a command point back on a 5+ whenever I spend a CP? I kind of wondered why I never seem to see that in competitive lists. You see a mix of when you spend command points or an opponent but never two items for the same source. Or is it that GW has just been good at limiting the bonuses so that they can't stack and no explicit rule is required?
This is likely to change very soon with an upcoming faq in the next couple of weeks, so I wouldn't plan it sticking around much longer.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby Draaen » Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:56 pm

PlaguemasterFlex wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:43 pm
This is likely to change very soon with an upcoming faq in the next couple of weeks, so I wouldn't plan it sticking around much longer.
Yeah I'm curious to see what they do. the command point battery seems to be an enabler for a lot of elite lists. Ever since playing Eric where he got something like over 40 CPs when we counted all the "free" ones it just seemed to me to be very strong and command point generators would be almost an auto take. My puretide engram neurochip never stays home. Not that I personally was considering making a soup for command point generation. I like my white scars pure white scars and I can't mix and match Tau. I just always wondered why hyper competitve soup lists wouldn't take celestine and more command point generators as they always seemed very strong in any list to me.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby Indy » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:37 am

Couple points:

-You can only take Relics from the Faction that your Warlord is from, correct? I.e. you can do EITHER, but not both, the IG one OR the BA one, not both.
-the current "perfect" tourny WAAC Imperium list is:
--IG bodies for meat and CP regeneration
--BA Captains for raw damage output (and to spend Daddy Munitorium's CP bucks like a spoiled rich kid)
--Imperial Knights for big scary things


A likely "fix" is to say that only the Faction that generates (or steals, if you're IG/DE) CP can use those CP. Might mean some bookkeeping, but IF (emphasis) GW's design criteria for each army included limiting certain factions' abilities based on the points-models-CP-generated conversion rate, then I would think they would have to go that route. Otherwise it means things are working "as planned".....which is an idea I am not too keen about.

The cynical side of me says they'll just keep playing whackamole with the nerfbat and now go after BA Captains*, Imperial Knights, and once again the IG. What's so depressing about that idea is that any nerfs that apply to those units disproportionately effects the mono-Faction versions of them. The reason those cross-faction combos work together so well is that they inherently shore up the weaknesses of each other. Mono-faction versions *need* xyz since the army of a whole is balanced that way.
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Re: Single serving of Guard CP cheese?

Postby PlaguemasterFlex » Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:08 pm

Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:37 am
Couple points:

-You can only take Relics from the Faction that your Warlord is from, correct? I.e. you can do EITHER, but not both, the IG one OR the BA one, not both.
-the current "perfect" tourny WAAC Imperium list is:
--IG bodies for meat and CP regeneration
--BA Captains for raw damage output (and to spend Daddy Munitorium's CP bucks like a spoiled rich kid)
--Imperial Knights for big scary things
You can use the relic buying stratagems for any of the factions in your army as long as you unlocked the use of the stratagem with a pure detachment. So by taking a Blood Angels Battalion or Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Aux you unlock the strats to buy additional relics. Your warlord's faction only provides you with a "Free" relic.

For example, the current dominant competitive list is an IG Brigade, 2 smash caps and scouts in a Blood Angels Battalion, and a Castellan in an Imperial Knight Super Heavy Aux. This list generates 20 Command Points to start the game. Pre-game the player is actually spending 7 Command Points for upgrades before they deploy anything.
-Free relic for warlord (kurov's aquilla for cp regen) - cost 0 cp
-2 relics for blood angels caps (relic wings and cp regen relic) - cost 3 cp
-make both smash caps death company - cost 2 cp
-give castellan a warlord trait - cost 1 cp
-give castellan a relic - cost 1 cp

The warlord is from IG so they take grand strategist and stacked with the BA relic you roll for both things when you spend cp. This means on a 1 CP stratagem you roll 2 dice, and on each 5+ get back a CP. In some cases you can GAIN command points from using stratagems. The kurov's aquilla also lets you roll for each strat your opponent spends. The farm is insane because of all of these interactions. This is what will likely be changing the most, because even being reduced to 13 CP you almost never see the IG player run out of points, even going through a ton of stratagems per turn. The smash caps and knight are truly terrifying because of all of their stratagems. Not sure how they will change it.
Indy wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:37 am
The cynical side of me says they'll just keep playing whackamole with the nerfbat and now go after BA Captains*, Imperial Knights, and once again the IG. What's so depressing about that idea is that any nerfs that apply to those units disproportionately effects the mono-Faction versions of them. The reason those cross-faction combos work together so well is that they inherently shore up the weaknesses of each other. Mono-faction versions *need* xyz since the army of a whole is balanced that way.
It's very possible they do this, they tend to overreact. Its pretty well rumored that the Castellan will be going up to over 700 pts, not sure about the BA smash captain changes quite yet but I'd assume a slight points increase is coming. The rest of the stuff would likely remain untouched for BA since it is not being used to the extent the smash captains are. Its also rumored many stratagems will be reduced to 1/game, but with cp regen greatly reduced I'm not sure how true this is. I guess we will have to wait and see.

If you're actually playing mono-factoin Blood Angels then this should not affect you very much aside from a points increase to the smash caps. Same for mono-faction knights, though we will probably see less lists using a Castellan and just more Gallants running around punching people.

Back to the original point of the thread: I would hold off making any investment into getting models for a cp farm. If you have them already then go for it until the faq.