Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

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CHAPLAIN T
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Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby CHAPLAIN T » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:33 pm

Dreadnoughts (and their big, monstrous, fighty, robot-monster equivalents throughout 40k) frequently have the option of taking two melee weapons. If a model has more than one weapon to fight with, it may choose which weapon it uses when it swings in combat. Is there any reason for having two melee weapons on a dreadnought? If Im not mistaken, the "+1 Attack for having two of the same weapon" bonus went away....right?

Why pay for a dreadnought to have TWO chainfists when you could buy one cheaper powerfist and one chainfist? You'll swing the chainfist exclusively in combat anyway, right?

What about the Ironclad dreadnought, with it's regular dreadnought CCW and a seismic hammer? What purpose does the DCCW serve here? Is there any downside to swapping the DCCW out for a hurricane bolter?

I will concede that certain FW variants get a nice perk when they double up on CCWs (reroll hits of 1 in CC). But outside of those examples, I dont see any benefit.There's got to be something I'm missing about big fighty things taking two of the same close combat weapon...

Right? :?
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby Sandtiger » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:18 pm

You're not missing anything. You no longer get +1 attack for taking Specialist Weapons because that rule went away. It is now much better to have a Hurricane Bolter, Multimelta, Assault Cannon, or other ranged weapon to use.
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby Sandtiger » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:19 pm

Outside of the notable exceptions that you already described, that is
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby Indy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:30 am

Rule of Cool?
“Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.”

-G.K. Chesteron
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby MrScotty » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:29 am

Almost every unit I know of in that situation gets some form of benefit.

Ironclad Dreadnought: Has a rule where it gets rerolls of 1 to hit with 2 melee weapons.
Helbrute: Second helbrute fist only costs 10pts compared to 40, and equipping with any 2 melee weapons grants it an extra attack.
Deff Dread: Retains its +1A for each extra dread klaw arm. Also dread klaws are cheap because you must take 2 base with the model so its cost are built into the stats.

Usually when paired weapons grant no extra rules it's either some thing where a character has a million different options and you could technically select some not usually paired melee gear, or you have no choice and the weapons are just given rules as a "set" (like some of the bangle dreads or Defilers or whatever)

Whether you consider that bonus that you get to be worthwhile or not...with Ironclads unless battlescribe is wrong and they've changed it from the codex, Space Marines actually pay 0 points for a dread CCW. so a hurricane bolter is 8 points for 8 bolter shots, and you lose rerolls of 1 to hit. So it seems like the go-to build would be either Chainfist/CCW with storm bolter/Meltagun/Assaultlaunchers so you can maul heavy in melee, or Chainfist/Hurricane Bolter/Heavy Flamer/Assaultlaunchers so you can more rarely get tied up. The chainfist is always superior to the hammer, which is definitely dumb - the hammer really should be S16 or something to get wounds on 2s vs standard vehicles.

The close combat build I outline above costs 19 points less and deals 10.9 damage on average to any T7 or T8 vehicle with a 3+ save or worse in a round when it gets to fire its melta and charge. That is fairly nice, but the other variant if it gets charged and tied up by a squad of guardsmen or other cheap chaff can kill 7 of them on the round it falls back and uses the Ultramarine CT to still shoot. It does give up 3 damage vs tanks on average the turn it charges.
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby Sandtiger » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:28 pm

In my defense, Scott clearly knows more than I do since I have always been mostly aware of Space Wolves Dreadnoughts (who get awesome wargear for normal VenDreads and huge damage bonuses if they're Character dreads) and haven't used Space Marine dreads much. I'm actually about to start building one Dreadnought from the Deathwatch starter kit that I have bought this week.
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby MrScotty » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:05 am

Sandtiger wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:28 pm
In my defense, Scott clearly knows more than I do since I have always been mostly aware of Space Wolves Dreadnoughts (who get awesome wargear for normal VenDreads and huge damage bonuses if they're Character dreads) and haven't used Space Marine dreads much. I'm actually about to start building one Dreadnought from the Deathwatch starter kit that I have bought this week.
Not at all trying to get a "gotcha" moment or anything buddy, just explaining because it is a weird situation now where everyone gets their own rules on a unit-by-unit basis.
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby AngelusSperi » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:14 pm

Yeah, like Scott said, most "walkers" get a benefit printed on their data slate. Ironclads get reroll 1s, helbrutes get +1 attack, Furioso dreads reroll melee misses, etc. Also, buying weapons in pairs comes at a discount as of the FAQs: if a contemptor buys a power fist and a chain fist, they pay 40 for the power fist and 46 for the chain fist; or they can buy a pair of power fists for 50 or a pair of chain fists for 56. The ironclad is a little weird in that the power fist is free/built in and then you pay for the other - theoretically useful if you pick the hammer, but the hammer is terribad and chain fists are wonderful (if you have points you can do the hurricane bolter instead, but I like heavy flamers so I keep it cuz I'm trash ^_^; ).
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Re: Dreadnoughts and their Melee Weapons

Postby CHAPLAIN T » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:52 am

Wait a minute...So a contemptor who buys a power fist (40) and a chain fist (46) pays 86 points total?

But he gets a discount for buying a pair of matched weapons....Am I understanding that correctly?