Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

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The Last Acton Hero
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Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby The Last Acton Hero » Fri May 04, 2018 7:23 am

Keith and I played last night and we were having trouble understanding Tau Saviour Protocols. He was a super good sport and went with the interpretation that was better for me, but I want to make sure I'm not trying to cheat Tau players going forward. Here's the rule.

Saviour Protocols: If a <SEPT> INFANTRY or <SEPT> BATTLESUIT unit within 3" of a friendly <SEPT> DRONES unit is wounded by an enemy attack, roll a D6. On a 2+ you can allocate that wound to the Drones unit instead of the target. If you do, that Drones unit suffers a mortal wound instead of the normal damage.

We were unsure what constitutes "is wounded". Is that when the opponent has a successful "to wound" roll, or not until you fail your save?

And just for comparison here's a similar ability from the Space Marine Company Veterans.

Roll a dice each time a friendly <CHAPTER> CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit; on a 2+ a model from this squad can intercept that hit - the charater does not lose a wound but this unt suffers a mortal wound.

The space marine one seems to pretty clearly be after the saves, but does not get the fun "all damage becomes a single mortal wound" part.

Thoughts?
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby PlaguemasterFlex » Fri May 04, 2018 8:24 am

Saviour Protocols intercepts before the save, when you are wounded. This means you can choose to take the save on the suit or try to dump it for a single mortal wounds on a two plus.

If you put the wound on a drone then it doesn't matter how much damage that lascannon or melta gun or anything would do it just becomes a single mortal wound.

If you choose not to put the wound on the Drone then you roll your save and suffer any damage that it would cause if you fail
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby MrScotty » Fri May 04, 2018 8:42 am

The space marine version is better vs low quality shots, the tau version is better vs high quality or high damage shots, as Dave said. Since many of the units the Tau are trying to protect are big suits, targetable across the board by heavy weaponry, it tends to work out as an advantage for the Tau.
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby The cosmic serpent » Fri May 04, 2018 9:35 am

Makes sense to me. Moving forward I’ll play it how we played it last night in future games. Sounds like the big guy is going to have to take higher volume salvos of low AP and hope for the best, and grab a drone for a shield against the big shots.
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby Indy » Mon May 07, 2018 11:04 am

Following up on this, when it comes to the rule for Space Marine Company Vets...

Let's say Lieutenant Oblivious gets hit by a lascannon while consulting a map, fails his save, and should suffer 4 damage, based on the Damage role of the lascannon. The ever loyal Veteran Sacrificus Maximus decides to intercept and successfully rolls a 2+.

Does our brave loyal Veteran thus suffer a single Mortal Wound and die and Lieutenant Oblivious is fine? Or does Veteran SM simply block a single point of damage--1 single wound--with his selfless mortal wound and thus the LT still takes 3 damage?
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby MrScotty » Mon May 07, 2018 11:32 am

Indy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:04 am
Following up on this, when it comes to the rule for Space Marine Company Vets...

Let's say Lieutenant Oblivious gets hit by a lascannon while consulting a map, fails his save, and should suffer 4 damage, based on the Damage role of the lascannon. The ever loyal Veteran Sacrificus Maximus decides to intercept and successfully rolls a 2+.

Does our brave loyal Veteran thus suffer a single Mortal Wound and die and Lieutenant Oblivious is fine? Or does Veteran SM simply block a single point of damage--1 single wound--with his selfless mortal wound and thus the LT still takes 3 damage?
Just the one, per the rules.
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby Memento » Mon May 07, 2018 2:29 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:32 am
Indy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:04 am
Following up on this, when it comes to the rule for Space Marine Company Vets...

Let's say Lieutenant Oblivious gets hit by a lascannon while consulting a map, fails his save, and should suffer 4 damage, based on the Damage role of the lascannon. The ever loyal Veteran Sacrificus Maximus decides to intercept and successfully rolls a 2+.

Does our brave loyal Veteran thus suffer a single Mortal Wound and die and Lieutenant Oblivious is fine? Or does Veteran SM simply block a single point of damage--1 single wound--with his selfless mortal wound and thus the LT still takes 3 damage?
Just the one, per the rules.
To clarify. Space Marines' Bodyguard rule procs for each wound lost. So, in the case above:

Lascannon hits > wounds > save (failed) > roll damage (4)
Bodyguard roll, if successful, Veteran takes 1 Mortal Wound (3 damage remaining)
LT takes the remaining 3 damage.
Screenshot (80).png
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby Indy » Mon May 07, 2018 5:39 pm

Memento wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:29 pm
MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:32 am
Indy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:04 am
Following up on this, when it comes to the rule for Space Marine Company Vets...

Let's say Lieutenant Oblivious gets hit by a lascannon while consulting a map, fails his save, and should suffer 4 damage, based on the Damage role of the lascannon. The ever loyal Veteran Sacrificus Maximus decides to intercept and successfully rolls a 2+.

Does our brave loyal Veteran thus suffer a single Mortal Wound and die and Lieutenant Oblivious is fine? Or does Veteran SM simply block a single point of damage--1 single wound--with his selfless mortal wound and thus the LT still takes 3 damage?
Just the one, per the rules.
To clarify. Space Marines' Bodyguard rule procs for each wound lost. So, in the case above:

Lascannon hits > wounds > save (failed) > roll damage (4)
Bodyguard roll, if successful, Veteran takes 1 Mortal Wound (3 damage remaining)
LT takes the remaining 3 damage.

Screenshot (80).png
What is the operative phrasing that makes it thus?

I think what makes it confusing is that we are talking about "wounds," "hits" and damage. The phrasing says when the character "loses a wound" ( it does not say "fails a save"), then the Vet can "intercept that hit" (okay, so now we are going back to the To Hit roll?) and the "character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."

Emphasis added to the "a" 's in all of that.

Where it gets unclear is what is NOT said: it does NOT say "fails a save," thus NOT specifying that like Tau drones, a Vet can tank all the damage from a single lascannon shot...yet it also does NOT say anything about the Damage factor for "a wound" that is being lost.

TL;DR: Do Company Vets act kinda sorta like Tau drones or kinda sorta like Feel No Pain?
“Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.”

-G.K. Chesteron
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby The Last Acton Hero » Mon May 07, 2018 5:48 pm

More like feel no pain. But if you have a feel no pain you can roll like 3 times to stop a wound. Does my storm shield block it? No, how about my 5+ fnp on my warlord, no?! Ok 2+ to put it on the command squad vet, good got that one. Now 6+ fnp on the veteran squad?! There's that 6. No wound!!!
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Re: Look out Sir vs Look out Shas 'ui

Postby Memento » Mon May 07, 2018 10:09 pm

Indy wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 5:39 pm
Memento wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 2:29 pm
MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 11:32 am


Just the one, per the rules.
To clarify. Space Marines' Bodyguard rule procs for each wound lost. So, in the case above:

Lascannon hits > wounds > save (failed) > roll damage (4)
Bodyguard roll, if successful, Veteran takes 1 Mortal Wound (3 damage remaining)
LT takes the remaining 3 damage.

Screenshot (80).png
What is the operative phrasing that makes it thus?

I think what makes it confusing is that we are talking about "wounds," "hits" and damage. The phrasing says when the character "loses a wound" ( it does not say "fails a save"), then the Vet can "intercept that hit" (okay, so now we are going back to the To Hit roll?) and the "character does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."

Emphasis added to the "a" 's in all of that.

Where it gets unclear is what is NOT said: it does NOT say "fails a save," thus NOT specifying that like Tau drones, a Vet can tank all the damage from a single lascannon shot...yet it also does NOT say anything about the Damage factor for "a wound" that is being lost.

TL;DR: Do Company Vets act kinda sorta like Tau drones or kinda sorta like Feel No Pain?
The operative wording here is loses a Wound. A model only loses Wounds after it fails its save and damage is determined.

Drones specifically intercept hits.

It could certainly be worded better. But there's very little ambiguity in my reading.