*** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

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Eisenfresser
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Eisenfresser » Mon May 29, 2017 5:13 pm

Things I'm excited about from the Space Marine weapon stats - assuming they'll be the same for Astra Militarum:

Sniper Rifles are Mortal Wounds on a 6 to wound - might actually make Ratling snipers worthwhile.*

Thunderfire cannons being 4D3 shots implies that the the Wyvern will be 8D3 shots - which is fantastic!

Plasma cannons having a Don't Hurt Yourself setting means that my Executioner can probably avoid killing itself in battle and won't require an Enginseer babysitter.

Twin Heavy Flamers do an awesome 2D6 hits, which is great for my Stormsword.
And the fact that they are only -1 AP means that my infantry can actually survive being attacked by flame weapons now.

* Not that I'll allow abhuman scum in my army. Instead I'll engage in Xenarite heresy and deploy Servo-skulls with sniper rifles.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Eisenfresser » Mon May 29, 2017 5:13 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 5:01 pm
Eisenfresser wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 4:57 pm
Did Space Marines just get a blanket +1 Attack? 'Cause the Combat Knife grants an extra attack.
Depends on if they all come with them/have access to them. None of the datasheets we have list combat knives, so it could be that now only Scouts have them and for everyone else they're just considered to be the "Generic CCW" that we saw in the core rules assault section.
Ah, okay. Still good for the Scouts though.
Game preferences:
+1 to going first roll if you finish deploying first
All terrain is "statuary"
No First Blood - it's basically a bonus VP for going first
Current Beta rules

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2,800 of tanks alone
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby MrScotty » Mon May 29, 2017 6:06 pm

Eisenfresser wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 5:13 pm
MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 5:01 pm
Eisenfresser wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 4:57 pm
Did Space Marines just get a blanket +1 Attack? 'Cause the Combat Knife grants an extra attack.
Depends on if they all come with them/have access to them. None of the datasheets we have list combat knives, so it could be that now only Scouts have them and for everyone else they're just considered to be the "Generic CCW" that we saw in the core rules assault section.
Ah, okay. Still good for the Scouts though.
Given that we don't have a pistol/ccw +1 attack any longer, it seems the bonus attack on the basic weapons (Chainsword, Choppa, Combat Knife) is a replacement for that.

unfortunate, I was kind of hoping they were actually telling the truth when they said "Chainswords do something now". Though basic infantry seem to be getting a "Stealth boost" in that specialist units and vehicles are all going way up in price while basic infantry are staying about the same. Looking at transport prices, "hmm, should my squad be on foot" now actually may be a thing to consider.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby MrScotty » Mon May 29, 2017 7:22 pm

http://imgur.com/a/BdEhR

Pretty much the whole Tau section of the index.

I am incredibly excited for this edition. The more I look these units over, the more I can't find any playstyle that seems gimped. There's a lot of shell shock about the points hikes on the more durable suits alongside the loss of JSJ, but they're insanely durable now. T5 W3 on crisis suits and they're way less concerned about casualties in melee now. I can see three viable strategies to tau: The traditional 3-5ed glass cannon gunline focusing on stacking buffs, screening with kroot or suits to keep from getting murdered in melee, and applying huge firepower with the Kauyon doctrine. Then there's mobile suit-based Close Combat Tau, who don't so much fight in close combat as not give a shit about it and just keep falling back and shooting at full effectiveness. Remember now all Tau vehicles have Fly, meaning they too can join in the fun of surviving melee, falling back, shooting more, and using high mobility to set up clusters of punishing For the Greater Good overwatch attacks. And lastly mechanized hard-hitting close range tau infantry seems to be actually solid with the new transport rules and the Drone Protocol rules. you can actually use Drones to soak wounds from your more valuable units. Close-ranged infantry units like Breacher and Stealth Suits can use the Drone defense power and new Photon Grenades to dish out their crazy damage and mitigate any hits coming back their way.

I know we'll have to see how things play out, but if this edition can make Tau look really really fun to play against as a person who runs melee armies, I'm totally game.
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All current beta rules in effect unless opponent prefers otherwise
I love setting up custom, fluffy scenarios, PM me!
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Indy » Mon May 29, 2017 8:45 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 3:15 pm
http://imgur.com/a/X7xLA

Here's a leak of something pretty substantial: tons of Adeptus Astartes stuff including Blood Angels.

One of the major interesting things I'm seeing is that though it isn't 100% confirmed, most rumors are pointing to the Fly keyword giving a blanket -1 to hit with ranged weapons, and we can see that the new Skyfire is "hit air targets normally, hit ground targets on -1." That means ALL jump pack, jet pack, and presumably skimmer/jetbike units are going to be harder to hit, with the latter two offset by what I'll bet is the removal of the "Jink" rule as standard.

Looking at some of those Blood Angels units - damn, Death Company stuff with lemartes is going to be nasty now. A DC dread with a magna grapple within 6" of lemartes has about a 75% chance of getting into combat turn 1 if it charges a vehicle, and regular death company units have about a 50% chance. Furioso Dreadnoughts are booking it 8" per turn. And the new apothecary power you can see on Brother Corbulo - bringing models back from the dead, holy shit!
Glad you're excited. My first assessment is a bit more grim. BA as a whole have lost anything special to make them stand apart other than their special units. For some, that may be a great thing, for me, that's a disappointment. Glad to see Mephiston has some juice back, although "only" two psychic powers seems a bit weak for "one of the most powerful psykers in the Imperium." Pretty cool to see that his S10 sword is now wargear as opposed to a power to roll for.
Grumble grumble grumble

As for first impressions of BA overall so far...
I might come off as kind of negative, but to me it just seems like so much of the unique flavorful rules are gone. I.e. look at one of my favorite dudes in the universe, Dante, in the hidden section below. He's got some good stuff in there, but it doesn't quite tell the same story that his 7th Ed rules did (i.e. having 2x WL traits to show his 1500 years of experience). Likewise, in terms of pure crunch...he makes all BA units in 6" re-roll To Hit ....not bad! But that is also what pretty much every Captain does in 8th, right? Secondly, Sanguinary Guard have a neat-o rule that let's them re-roll To Hit if within 6" of a BA Warlord. So on its own, it's an ok rule, but it is redundant with Dante's buff....thus meaning BA have less synergy to go up against the big dogs of the game (presumably). Also, it kind of ruins some of the fluffy synergy they were previously going for with the whole Golden Host (Dante + Sanguinary Guard) thing.

As for Death Company....they go from having 5x S5 attacks on the Charge each to 3x S4 attacks on the Charge. So pound-for-pound they are worse off and arguably NEED a buffing character even more. TBH, that is the exact opposite of the direction I thought 8th was heading.

...anyways, I won't pass judgement until we all have the full landscape in front of us and am still fairly excited for 8th overall.


In terms of power levels, here's Dante compared to Abaddon to see how things are starting to shake out:
Legacy of the Vengeful Spirit

Commander Dante
Power 11
M WS BS S T W A LD Sv
12” 2+ 2+ 4 4 6 6 9 2+
single model armed with the Axe Mortalis, an Inferno Pistol, frag grenades, and krak grenades. Only one per army

Inferno pistol 6” Pistol 1 S8 AP-4 D: D6 If target within half range, roll 2D6 for damage and discard the lowest result
The Axe Mortalis Melee S+2 AP-3 D: D3 You can re-roll failed wound rolls for this weapon if the target is a Character
Frag grenade 6” Grenade D6 S3 AP0 D1
Krak grenade 6” Grenade 1 S6 Ap-1 D3

Abilities
And They Shall Know No Fear (pg 88) (re-rolls failed Morale tests)
Chapter Master: You can re-roll failed hit rolls for friendly Blood Angels within 6” of Commander Dante
Jump Pack Assault: During deployment, you can set up Commander Dante high in the skies instead of placing him on the battlefield. At the end of any of you Movement phases Commander Dante can assault from above —set him up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9” away from any enemy models.
Death Mask: Enemy units suffer a -1 Modifier to their Leadership while they are within 3” of any models wearing a death mask
Iron Halo: Commander Dante has a 4++ invulnerable save

Faction Keywords: Imperium Adeptus Astartes, Blood Angels
Keyword: Character, Infantry, Chapter Master, Jump Pack, Fly, Commander Dante


Compare to
from ( https://imgur.com/a/kPLQc#AJkNGFx )
Abaddon the Despoiler
Power (cut off)
M WS BS S T W A LD Sv
6” 2+ 2+ 4 5 7 6 10 2+
single model armed with Drach’nyen and the Talon of Horus. One per army

(name cut off ): 24” Rapid Fire 2 S4 AP-1 D:D3
(name cut off ): Melee S+1 AP-3 D:D3 Roll a D6 each time Abaddon the Despoiler fights. ON a 1 he suffers a mortal wound and cannot use this weapon further during this page. On a 2+ he can make this many additional attacks with this weapon
(name cut off ): Melee Sx2 AP-3 D:D3
Death to the False Emperor (rumored to mean that 6’s To Hit in combat give 1 additional melee attack)
Dark Destiny: Abaddon has a 4++ insulin save. In addition, all damage suffered by Abaddon the Despoiler is halved (rounded up).
Lord of the Black Legion: You may re-roll any failed hit rolls for friendly Black Legion units that are within 6” of Abaddon
Mark of Chaos Ascendant: Friendly Heretic Astartes units automatically pass Morale tests whilst they are within 12” of Abaddon
Teleport Strike: During deployment, you can set up Abaddon the Despoiler in a teleportarium chamber instead of placing him on the battlefield. At the end of of any your Movement phases Abaddon can use a teleport strike to arrive on the battlefield - set him up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9” away from any enemy unit.

Faction Keywords: Chaos, Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Heretic Astartes, Black Legion
Keywords: Character, Infantry, Chaos Lord, Terminator, Abaddon the Despoiler

“Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.”

-G.K. Chesteron
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Indy » Mon May 29, 2017 9:03 pm

Eisenfresser wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 5:13 pm
Plasma cannons having a Don't Hurt Yourself setting means that my Executioner can probably avoid killing itself in battle and won't require an Enginseer babysitter.
Conversely, I find the Russian Roulette setting on pistols hilarious. Glad to know if Mephiston, with all his 170pt glory, decides he's tired of it all he can get +1S and +1D for a chance to be instantly slain on a To Hit of 1.
“Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.”

-G.K. Chesteron
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby wnbrice » Mon May 29, 2017 9:31 pm

Well then its a good thing you dont have to make that choice huh? Calculated risk on your part and there is always the cmd point re-roll
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby MrScotty » Mon May 29, 2017 9:41 pm

Yeah, it definitely seems that synergy/buffs is something that has to be paid attention to. Death company on their own? Mildly threatening. 2 units with a sang priest and maybe a DC dread with Lemartes giving everyone his buffs: gnarly.

Sanguinor seems to be made for the sang guard, and Dante for the main host of the army. He can buff anything after all, might as well twin-link a couple Baal predators and have them kick ass.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Draaen » Mon May 29, 2017 11:06 pm

MrScotty wrote:
Mon May 29, 2017 7:22 pm
http://imgur.com/a/BdEhR

Pretty much the whole Tau section of the index.

I am incredibly excited for this edition. The more I look these units over, the more I can't find any playstyle that seems gimped. There's a lot of shell shock about the points hikes on the more durable suits alongside the loss of JSJ, but they're insanely durable now. T5 W3 on crisis suits and they're way less concerned about casualties in melee now. I can see three viable strategies to tau: The traditional 3-5ed glass cannon gunline focusing on stacking buffs, screening with kroot or suits to keep from getting murdered in melee, and applying huge firepower with the Kauyon doctrine. Then there's mobile suit-based Close Combat Tau, who don't so much fight in close combat as not give a shit about it and just keep falling back and shooting at full effectiveness. Remember now all Tau vehicles have Fly, meaning they too can join in the fun of surviving melee, falling back, shooting more, and using high mobility to set up clusters of punishing For the Greater Good overwatch attacks. And lastly mechanized hard-hitting close range tau infantry seems to be actually solid with the new transport rules and the Drone Protocol rules. you can actually use Drones to soak wounds from your more valuable units. Close-ranged infantry units like Breacher and Stealth Suits can use the Drone defense power and new Photon Grenades to dish out their crazy damage and mitigate any hits coming back their way.

I know we'll have to see how things play out, but if this edition can make Tau look really really fun to play against as a person who runs melee armies, I'm totally game.
I don't know we can say there is no more JSJ. There is no more information supporting that then we had before with the sniper drones unless I am missing something. The battlesuit or jetpack keyword may allow JSJ. Especially jet pack as the new inceptors have it and in the art it looks like the inceptor is jumping back and shooting. Kind of a classic Crisis suit maneuver. At least that's my hope (and my last one for JSJ).

Honestly I envision a more deep strike oriented army that allows me to strike at the weak back lines or open up multiple fronts if you just charge into me with a full melee army. Suits have more wounds and toughness so can probably get themselves out of trouble unless something gets dedicated against them.

My first impressions are

Counter fire defense system will be huge counter play against the turn 1 assault. Shield generator is cheaper than ever probably meaning more survivability. 2+/4++ on broadsides with T5, 6W and drones they can drop multi wound shots onto seems a tough combo to remove. Additional equipment increase AP by 1 is nice and 2 Damage heavy 3 Ion cannon seems pretty sweet. Heavy Rail Rife gives 2 shots and the high yield missile pod 4. This seems to be a better balance then before and I am quite happy to see it as when I initially read the equipment list it said they only get the heavy rail rifle not two of them. Stealth suits are relatively cheap for 4 S5 18" range shots with -1 to hit 2 W T4 now and 3+ save. Devilfish moves 12" and can get 12 shots and are pretty tough. They should be fun. Seeker missiles are mortal wounds. Not sure if this is the way to read it but it seems like with markerlights just giving flat bonuses so a skyray (and any other models with seeker missiles) could just alpha strike with all the seeker missiles onto say something like a knight or real tough unit turn 1. Rail rifles cause a mortal wound on a roll of a 6 for the wounds and railguns do D3. It seems like a nice way to delineate them from Lascannons in terms of penetrating power. The mortal wounds are a low chance but cool and could take out two models or more if shooting into a horde.

Tau have totally fallen behind in the safe plasma category. Ours is one strength less than the imperium version and does not get an overcharge option. It is as far as I can tell now just strictly inferior. Another more or less flavor loss is that Kroot no longer have stealth in forests nor do they get sniper rounds... no outflank either kroot are a little more limited in how they deploy this edition. Way less vehicle options in general and no disruption pods either. Also Pinning seems to be no more with it's removal from pulse carbines.
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Current Beta rules in effect
I'm happy to play lower points levels with people who are staring out or building up new forces
Fair warning my doofy daemons have 3rd party models, scratch builds, old warhammer models and I haven't moved all their bases over to the 40k ones yet! Happy to switch to either Tau or White Scars.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby The Last Acton Hero » Tue May 30, 2017 2:36 am

Space Marine Sergeant with Plasma Pistol and Power Sword...

7th: 30 points in upgrades, will probably blow himself up and be really disappointing in CC. "I just want my army to look cool, who wants a fluffy game?"

8th: 11 points, enjoys murdering terminators and light tanks. "Sgt Skippy is coming for you!"