*** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

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*** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Memento » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:13 am

Hey all!

By now, rumors of the impending 8th Edition of Warhammer 40k have been circulating the interwebs. And Games Workshop has given a bit of a teaser at this year's Adepticon. While there's no official timeline for release, the Officer Corps thought it might be a good idea to start up a transition thread where we can post updates and answer questions about how an edition change can and will affect our club.

On the surface, it looks like a lot of the proposed changes are Age of Sigmar-esque. I promise you this is a good thing! 7th Edition, while a good system, has been struggling with rules-bloat for a while. Streamlining the game and adding nuance where it matters will make for a better game and experience in the long run.

For now, feel free to post any questions or discussion below. It's a little early to make any grand assumptions about the state of 8th Edition or how it will affect us at Grimdark Gaming. But this thread will be stickied so that you'll be able to have a back-and-forth with the Officer Corps so you can weigh in with your opinions on our plans for the future.

Links here:
Teaser Announcement - https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... adepticon/
Here's what we know:

Open, Narrative, and Matched Play Games
This seems like a carbon-copy of what was done with Age of Sigmar. Open Play is points-free. Narrative follows strict army/list requirements in some sort of narrative campaign designed to represent a key battle or event. And Matched Play is the same type of points-level game we know and love

Thematic Army Selection
Basically you get bonuses for building fluffly lists. The GW Design Team has been talking about this for a while. Strength should come from Fluff. While they're not explicitly taking away player's ability to build and run Ally Matrix Power Lists like SuperFriends or TauDar, they're heavily incentivizing fluff builds through mechanical rewards.

Movement Per Unit
Again, a very Sigmar-like change (which is itself very OldHammer). No more unit types. Each unit is going to have its own movement value. It's more to remember, but I think it'll add some more depth to list building and unit selections.

Weapons
Armor modifiers! No longer will we have static AP values. Again, a Sigmar-from-OldHammer rules change. Greater degrees of weapon differentiation is a good thing. You might have to do more math on the fly. But it makes for more nuanced decision making in the long run.

Combat & Initiative
Oh boy... this is a big one. Charging units fight first? I haven't seen a rule like that since... 1999? Mordheim anyone? This is probably going to be one of the more contentious rule swaps. Personally, I'm for it. Attacking first on the charge means that players need to plan around the Assault Phase regardless of their army's composition. Charges, counter-charges, and blocks become much more prominent.

Morale, Leadership, and You
This is (yet another) Sigmar rules lift. Adding more nuance to Leadership roles is a good change, I think. There's a lot of rules in the current edition that allows models to straight up ignore Morale. And armies without those benefits were unduly penalized. In the proposed change, battles of attrition are actually a thing. Losing combat doesn't mean your entire squad auto-die. It means that some of your models flee, are crushed, or are otherwise incapacitated. The fight can still continue!

Also, for those of you getting anxious about the upcoming sea-change, the guys at the Independent Characters Podcast just released an episode with some great advice on Adapting to Edition Changes
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Connman234 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:37 am

From a personal level, I like these supposed changes. I have always been one to like the assault phase. These changes IMO feel make the melee armies more viable for assaults.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Memento » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:41 am

Connman234 wrote:From a personal level, I like these supposed changes. I have always been one to like the assault phase. These changes IMO feel make the melee armies more viable for assaults.
It's not just that. It's that armies without strong melee units have a viable alternative to retreating. And Assault armies need to play a bit cagey when it comes to moving their troops.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby MrScotty » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:43 am

I feel like just the universalization of morale and the change to striking first in assault will be enough to make Orks really good. If this follows a similar release to the (popular, rather than initial) version of Age of Sigmar, they'll release a big book that will include units from all factions, giving them all a rules/balance pass. Then special detachments/new units/new formations will be released in later supplement books.

So, it's really hard to make "what will work/what won't work" judgements before we see the new base rules for each faction.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby MrScotty » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:56 am

Also, though this is pure speculation, the recently released rules for Shadow Wars: Armageddon have many of these mechanics already in place, including movement values and armor save modifiers.

The Ork Power Klaw is Armor Save -3, currently an AP 2 weapon in 40k. So it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to say AP4,3,2,1 might become -1,-2,-3,-4.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby effullbao » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:03 am

This being my first (and I assume many others') edition change, I'm pretty interested in seeing how this will affect my collection. Not so much in the "oh no my entire collection is invalidated" way but more like having a "new collection" to experiment with list building. I was just starting to get used to my codex recently so there's going to be that element of learning but I imagine that many of you have adjusted just fine. After all, we get visitors all the time that haven't played since editions past that love even just watching the game so our enthusiasm for 40k will be there no matter what.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Fenris Frost » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:05 am

I am hoping the Command Points for fluffy armies thing kills super list trickery. I am tired of lists being built by rules instead of by fluff.

I think unit movement will immensely benefit Daemons and Orks, possibly nids. It will also give a good balancing downside to things, so that stuff that is priced more competitively. I'm hoping Scouts get a speed buff (and maybe Wulfen).

Overall I like the general direction, I still don't know how I feel about further incentivizing big units, but I trust the company's designers implicitly and they always seem to level those rough edges with an edition change. My favorite thing is seeing books that came out near the edition change start to suddenly make sense with the updated rules.

I'm most excited to see some differences in the weaponry via the AP thing. I think that alone will go a long way toward making things feel different.

It's definitely not my first rodeo but edition changes are always great for reshaping the game. They have a way of balancing things; there's no better time to play than the first few months after a change like this. It's one of the few times in the game where everybody is actively playing it without a roadmap.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Indy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:18 am

I looooooooooooooove the idea (again, we'll have to see how it actually works out) of things in general having more of a sliding scale. The idea of AP value on weapons reducing armor saves by x value, rather than just flat-out ignoring things, makes so much sense to me. I always found it interesting how exponentially better 2+/3+/4+/5+ save was from each other because AP3 ignores everything, but a Terminator still gets a full 2+ save against it. Having that 2+ dude still get a save, but albeit a 5+ or something against a 3+ weapon makes so much more sense to me. It will also help with the seeming "AP2 at Initiative or bust" arms race that's been happening since I got into the game.

Color me cautiously excited.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby MrScotty » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:24 am

Indy wrote:I looooooooooooooove the idea (again, we'll have to see how it actually works out) of things in general having more of a sliding scale. The idea of AP value on weapons reducing armor saves by x value, rather than just flat-out ignoring things, makes so much sense to me. I always found it interesting how exponentially better 2+/3+/4+/5+ save was from each other because AP3 ignores everything, but a Terminator still gets a full 2+ save against it. Having that 2+ dude still get a save, but albeit a 5+ or something against a 3+ weapon makes so much more sense to me. It will also help with the seeming "AP2 at Initiative or bust" arms race that's been happening since I got into the game.

Color me cautiously excited.
Thousand Sons and Tempestus Scions are rubbing their palms in anticipation.

While we're at the Age of Sigmar armor save system, I would like to see the cover system as well - rather than a separate save, cover adds a bonus to your armor save. So where previously, any unit with a 4+ armor save or better rarely had to care about cover, it'd be nice to see Marines using cover to their advantage again. It also reduces the "weird factor" of cover working exactly the same versus small arms and versus large weapons. A guardsman might get a +1 to his SV for being in cover, bringing him up to a 4+, but then if the wooden hut he's hiding in gets hit by an artillery shell with -2sv, he won't get as much protection as he would against lasgun fire.
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Re: *** 8th Edition 40k Transition Thread ***

Postby Indy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:26 am

MrScotty wrote:
Indy wrote:I looooooooooooooove the idea (again, we'll have to see how it actually works out) of things in general having more of a sliding scale. The idea of AP value on weapons reducing armor saves by x value, rather than just flat-out ignoring things, makes so much sense to me. I always found it interesting how exponentially better 2+/3+/4+/5+ save was from each other because AP3 ignores everything, but a Terminator still gets a full 2+ save against it. Having that 2+ dude still get a save, but albeit a 5+ or something against a 3+ weapon makes so much more sense to me. It will also help with the seeming "AP2 at Initiative or bust" arms race that's been happening since I got into the game.

Color me cautiously excited.
Thousand Sons and Tempestus Scions are rubbing their palms in anticipation.

While we're at the Age of Sigmar armor save system, I would like to see the cover system as well - rather than a separate save, cover adds a bonus to your armor save. So where previously, any unit with a 4+ armor save or better rarely had to care about cover, it'd be nice to see Marines using cover to their advantage again. It also reduces the "weird factor" of cover working exactly the same versus small arms and versus large weapons. A guardsman might get a +1 to his SV for being in cover, bringing him up to a 4+, but then if the wooden hut he's hiding in gets hit by an artillery shell with -2sv, he won't get as much protection as he would against lasgun fire.
Scott,

They build REALLY GOOD wooden huts in the 41st millenium.
“Fairy tales do not give the child his first idea of bogey. What fairy tales give the child is his first clear idea of the possible defeat of bogey. The baby has known the dragon intimately ever since he had an imagination. What the fairy tale provides for him is a St. George to kill the dragon.”

-G.K. Chesteron