Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

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Darth Hoodie
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Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby Darth Hoodie » Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:45 pm

I've been doing a lot of thinking about Chapter Approved #2 lately or even a Marines Codex 2.0 and I think I think I have come to a few conclusions to help bring the Marines up to snuff with newer books.

1: Chapter Tactics will apply to every unit with the "chapter" keyword.

Every other "Chapter Tactic" equivalent works for every unit in the book why not Space Marines?

2: All "chapter" Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts reduce the AP of incoming attacks by 1. (IE: A Plasma Gun will only be AP -2 instead of AP -3.)

It's too easy to kill a Marine power armor is not so powerful anymore and Knight Armagiers with their crazy movement, invul save and stratagem support have made Dreadnoughts obsolete. By reducing incoming AP by 1 I feel like this change will be a HUGE boon to the survivability of space marines and its my biggest proposed change.

3: All vehicles with the "chapter" keyword have the "Power of the Machine Spirit" special rule. Ignoring the penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons.

Space Marine Tanks suck right now. Predators are totally outclassed, I have never seen anyone play a Vindicator and Razorbacks are troop transports not meant to fill up a parking lot. Dreadnoughts being able to move and shoot at Full BS would also give them a much needed boost to be comparable to something like a Knight Armagier.

4: All "chapter" infantry, bikers, and dreadnoughts gain +1 attack.

In 7th Edition at least Marines had their Initiative 4 which meant that they struck first in Close Combat against "most" opponents. Now with the way close combat works, that is not really the case anymore. An additional attack would help to make up for their loss of "first strike" potential.

5: Make Terminators WS/BS 2+ and 3 Wounds.

I dont remember the last time I saw someone taking Terminators in 8th edition. Matter of fact I dont remember seeing anyone take Terminators in 7th edition either... Make them WS/BS 2+ to make up for their loss of relentless and it only makes sense that a veteran in terminator armor specifically designed for close assault operations is going to be a proficient close combat fighter. It suddenly makes both assault or basic terminators significantly scarier in close combat and less dependent on buffing characters. Combine 3 wounds with my proposed AP modifier and all of a sudden you have a unit you can deep strike viably without NEEDING to get a buff character in with them to get something out of them.

6: Increase the range of all character aura effects by 3 Inches.

Guard have their orders, Tau have their markerlights, Eldar has a hellaciously effective psychic phase and Space Marines have their Re-Roll Auras. Make them slightly larger and it will go a long way to help give marines a more flexible and mobile game play instead of the traditional "castle."

7: Exploding 6s. Count each hit roll of a 6 with "Bolt Weapons" as two instead of 1 when determining the number of to wound rolls made on a target.

Its an exponentially better bolter drill stratagem and its universal. Bolters took a hit in the transition from 7th to 8th loosing the ability to pop flack armor and other similar light infantry. At least give us something to make up for it with volume. Chaos Marines get death to the false emperor in combat this could serve as a loyalist equivalent.

I dont think anything here would be too game breaking.
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Re: Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby MrScotty » Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:20 pm

Are you going for "this is a list of a variety of things I think could improve marines, none of them individually is game breaking" or "this is a list of things, ALL of which i think would not be gamebreaking to add to marines"? Because if it's the former, I might agree, but boy oh boy do I think you'd have some other factions feeling like they've had their toes stepped on if marines got all of that.

1: obvious. technically almost every codex has "exception" units that are generally not included in chapter tactics, and for marines, this would just be shit like Servitors. For example with the upcoming orks, all Gretchin and models manned by Gretchin like Killa Kanz and mek gunz dont get klan bonuses, and Flash Gitz work like Tempestus where they can only benefit in a full detachment of Freebootas. dark Eldar have a bunch of mercenary units, tau have a bunch of auxiliaries...but regardless, yeah, marines should just get their chapter for starters.

2: Im gonna say marines should probably not just get the Thousand Sons All is Dust rule on all their stuff with no "damage 1" limitation. Tsons pay a shit ton (arguably too much) to have that rule, slapping it on all loyalists would be a little nuts.

3: I mean, I can definitely see adding this to White Scars, or as a bonus to Dreads and Predators in particular, but as an army wide blanket rule it seems a little crazy when even Eldar and Dark Eldar tanks dont shoot and move at full BS with heavy weapons, and they're the "speedy go fast" factions. Comparing pretty much anything to a helverin is kind of a fools errand though, because Helverins don't just make space marine ranged anti-tank obsolete, they make IMPERIAL AND CHAOS ranged anti tank obsolete. you can just slap one of these motherfuckers into your list with zero tax or anything and they do more damage per point than nearly everything in every codex including previous ranged dakka kings like imperial guard. Helverins and Castellans are the best ranged anti tank weapons available to an imperial guard army. They will be getting nerfed.

4: I think the points premium you'd pay for stuff like devastators, tacticals and intercessors to have 3 attacks would be a price a lot of marine players would begrudge paying, because they are still primarily a shooty army, with most of their upgrades being guns. Assault Marines, bikers and a few veteran type units whose shtick is meant to be "they're good at all the things but expensive" would probably work pretty good with an extra attack.

5: sure. I think if marines were going to have a special snowflake reduce AP armor type, I'd put that on the Terminators and the beefy primarius marines (aggressors and the primarius waterskiiers)

6: or maybe we could make it so we don't have to price marines based on the stupidity that would be a 9" guilliman bubble. If anything, I think the existence of that one frickin' dude and to a lesser extent the reliance of other chapters on full reroll to hit auras is one reason marines have gotten to the heavily nerfed state they're at now. if you have to price everything based on "what if it were rerolling all hits and wounds though" you have to be a lot more conservative with prices, and marines DESPERATELY need some price drops.

7: So, dakka dakka dakka but you don't have to make the extra hit roll? I guess, but I also think there are probably better places to put the power budget of bolter weapons.

overall I think Marines need two basic things. 1, a chapter tactic/legion tactic rework, where some of the worse tactics get some extras and where everyone benefits from chapters/legions like they should. and 2, a rules pass where some of the more boring marine units get special snowflake rules that make them more fluffy/interesting. That, and points adjustments, and I think you're most of the way there, except with some extreme outliers who still need intensive surgery like grey knights and deathwatch.
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Re: Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby Indy » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:41 am

Speaking of Grey Knights....

Chapter Tactic = -1 to enemy Invuln saves

....that would make them quite interesting in terms of their niche place in the game, and also make them more useful against a variety of targets instead of just super good at daemons and not good against much else. They would be nasty against anything that relies on invluns (like daemons or enemy elites units/HQ's) yet keep them inadequate against fending off hordes.


As for Space Marine vehicles, in lieu of a total rework of most power armor codexes (which I think is justified), I think the simplest thing for say a Chapter Approved would be to add the following:

Astartes Crew: Regardless of the make or model, the one thing that Space Marine vehicles have in common over those of other species is that they are crewed by the Emperor's finest.
All <Chapter> Vehicles that do not have a Chapter Tactic count their Wounds characteristic as double when determining the effects of any damage suffered. (basically Valhalla Regimental Doctrine for all)
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Re: Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby Draaen » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:54 pm

I totally agree on the chapter bonuses on vehicles and chapter bonus re-works. The bonuses to the terminators would be cool Especially if they carried over to characters as well.

I also agree with Scotty. How do you balance me getting hit and run when ultramarines have access to the nigh untargatteabl/unkillable buff master? I kind of want to see him be more standalone and be like a lieutenant chapter master side grade. Then you can price marines based off of the potential buffs each chapter can get.

Why do you think the predator is so under powered? It's just curious to me because the tau forums I look at use a quad las pred as the measuring stick for points per wound mathhammering. The hammerhead is always in the losing position in terms of efficiency without being appreciably more survivable. Part of me wonders if there are too many invulnerable saves on big units, like the 3++ knight, so that the las cannons AP -3 isn't doing enough work when it does hit.

One thing that could resolve a lot of your issues would just be some better stratagems. Which is something I hope happens in chapter approved. There aren't a ton of strats that I want to spend CP on with my white scars. But +1 attack and +1 to hit for vanguard vets/assault marines, reduce AP and damage against a marine unit, or re-roll attack rolls and wound rolls for terminators? Stratagems like that could get you a lot of what you want and go a long way.

No matter what they do I hope the marines get tougher and meaner if they release a new codex. Not cheaper and more plentiful.
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Re: Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby Memento » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:00 am

This strikes me as only the most recent in a long laundry list of wishlisting on behalf of (non-Ultramarine) Loyalist Astartes players this edition. I'll be the first to admit, even as an Ultramarine player, I've found Loyalist play styles to be less than stimulating as of late. They definitely need some help. I don't think anyone's really disagreeing on that point.

Most of what I have to contribute to this conversation has been more eloquently stated by Scott. I tend to agree with him in that the bulk of your proposals - if taken all together - would heavily skew games in favor of Loyalists at the expense of all other factions - maybe that's what you're secretly hoping for :lol:.

In all seriousness though, I think the most efficient way that I've found to enact rules changes is to contact GW's public feedback inbox directly (40KFAQ@gwplc.com). They don't usually respond with anything more than boilerplate messages. But at least then you'll know someone in-house read it.
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Re: Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby The Last Acton Hero » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:51 pm

You guys are missing some key points.
-Bolters are mini rocket launchers. Rocket launcher are Str8 AP-2 D6 damage. Granted bolters are smaller, so they should be more like Str6 AP-1 D3 damage.
-Space marines can spit acid. A carnifex acid maw is ap-5, D3 damage. Something similar for space marines in melee would be appropriate.
-All space marines have 2 hearts, they should clearly have 2 wounds.
Can't wait for GW to fix these fairly obvious mistakes.
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Re: Space Marines 8th ed 2.0 Wishlist.

Postby Kman2190 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:25 pm

The Last Acton Hero wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:51 pm
You guys are missing some key points.
-Bolters are mini rocket launchers. Rocket launcher are Str8 AP-2 D6 damage. Granted bolters are smaller, so they should be more like Str6 AP-1 D3 damage.
-Space marines can spit acid. A carnifex acid maw is ap-5, D3 damage. Something similar for space marines in melee would be appropriate.
-All space marines have 2 hearts, they should clearly have 2 wounds.
Can't wait for GW to fix these fairly obvious mistakes.
As someone who runs a bunch of marines, I would love it if bolters got a buff along with an extra wound. For all the hoopla that marines get in the fluff, they're awfully squishy on the table top.
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